Team shape, tactics and personnel

[TomC]

For those who subscribe, the Athletic has an article about Unai's preseason tactics today...

https://theathletic.com/4724125/2023/08/04/unai-emery-aston-villa-mings-torres/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983

There's not much in there that we haven't discussed here, but it's a good summary.

 

[TRO]

I think the recent inclusions, and the emergence of youth has given UE , what he wanted........ options.

The man is so tactically aware, he can change things at the drop of a hat......and I do envisage, we will see players, changed quite regularly in a game.

I think the notion that there will be a first 11, will be deemed old hat......It will change from game to game and even "in game"

any fixed set up, played regularly, encourages the opposition camp, to negate us......I think that is precisely what UE wants to avoid.

[CVByrne]

I think our build up will be better this season. Players like Torres, Buendia, Tielemans, Luiz all very progressive players. I think with the 3 CBs build up with Mings or Carlos as the central of the 3. The alternating attacking full back, LB or RB. 

We can find different ways to get into the 3 2 5 attacking shape. We have the option of two 10s like a 3 2 2 3 or a single 10 and two forwards more a 3 2 1 4. This is because of Diaby being a versatile player. 

From a 4 4 2 block we can send a full back up (Moreno/Cash) and a wide midfielder (like Philogene/Bailey) to provide the width and keeping Diaby off Watkins and McGinn as the 10. Alternatively we have a Buendia/Ramsey/Coutinho/McGinn in wide midfield to be the two 10s and Diaby provides width with the full back on other side.

So many options and plenty of room for changes

[villan95]

I reckon these are the players almost certain to start first match. Then it's between Digne or Torres at LB, Kamara or Tielemans in midfield and probably Buendia on the left?

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, villan95 said:

I reckon these are the players almost certain to start first match. Then it's between Digne or Torres at LB, Kamara or Tielemans in midfield and probably Buendia on the left?

This is how I see it too. I think Unain goes with Digne, Buendia and Kamara. 

[KAZZAM]

Not sure it's been said here but the current trend seems to be play more CB's(invert to 3 in attack). 

City and Arsenal both did it last season and in the community shield Arsenal played with Saliba, Timber, White, Gabriel(4).City had Akanji, Stones, Dias(3).

I think what we've seen in preseason is Unai position us to also play like this. I feel its good news to be ahead of the curve on this to be one step ahead of other top 5 pretenders (Newcastle, Spurs, Liverpool, Chelsea). 

To sum it up I'm just happy to be on the cusp of a possible football evolution instead of just watching it all unfold. 

[villan95]

14 minutes ago, KAZZAM said:

Not sure it's been said here but the current trend seems to be play more CB's(invert to 3 in attack). 

City and Arsenal both did it last season and in the community shield Arsenal played with Saliba, Timber, White, Gabriel(4).City had Akanji, Stones, Dias(3).

I think what we've seen in preseason is Unai position us to also play like this. I feel its good news to be ahead of the curve on this to be one step ahead of other top 5 pretenders (Newcastle, Spurs, Liverpool, Chelsea). 

To sum it up I'm just happy to be on the cusp of a possible football evolution instead of just watching it all unfold. 

You could say Pep and Arteta have actually copied Unai considering he was doing it at Villarreal with Juan Foyth at RB

[KAZZAM]

6 minutes ago, villan95 said:

You could say Pep and Arteta have actually copied Unai considering he was doing it at Villarreal with Juan Foyth at RB

That's true. 

[CVByrne]

14 hours ago, villan95 said:

You could say Pep and Arteta have actually copied Unai considering he was doing it at Villarreal with Juan Foyth at RB

They did, he was using the Box midfield before them and Xavi. They saw the benefits of the 3 box 3 in build up so incorporated it. Pep used a 2 3 5 and then slowly adapted as he realised he was losing to talented counter attacking players who excelled in one on ones. So he moved to a 3 2 5 and had his best 1v1 players in his back 3 which were all "CBs"

I think we have seen from pre-season Emery clearly is adding more of what he did at Villareal with a nominal  4 4 2 in defensive shape. With functional back 3 of CBs and two 6s for the 3 2 5 attacking. I think one of Moreno / Cash will play with either Konsa or Pau the opposite "full back". Then the two 6s. 

I think LM/RM is dependent to a degree on which side is the attacking fullback. We could go with a winger on the opposite side, for example Cash in RB Philogene in LM or Moreno in LB Bailey in RM. I suppose the way to think about it is how our front 5 look. Is it two 10s and a 3 or is it 1 10 and a 4. 

What I mean by it is, does the second striker play wide one side and the full back wide on the other and we've two 10s coming from LM/RM. Or do we have one 10 from LM and RM is winger so the second striker stays centrally with Watkins. There's also a variation to this too with one of the two 10s being the second striker (McGinn for example).

Options options options. 

I also think 2 CBs with Moreno and Cash is an option too when we expect to play low blocks we'll be gifted free possession in our build up phase while opposition sit deep. Every home game in ECL will be this and some in PL too I'd expect. 

[TomC]

So, what do we do without Buendia? Leaving out buying someone and just going with current personnel...

I'm assuming that a backline of 4 (in defence) and the double pivot are set in stone, so I'm thinking in terms of the "attacking 4," regardless of what variation we use among them.

Before yesterday, my thinking was that Watkins, McGinn, and Diaby would be regulars, and that we'd see either JJ or Buendia depending on whether Unai wants more of a runner or a passer, and also on whether Buendia is having a good day (even those of us who are fans know he's inconsistent). I saw Bailey, Coutinho, and JPB used mostly as subs.

So my first thought now is that JJ, when he returns from injury, will be more secure in a starting position rather than sharing starts with Buendia.

That said, when Unai wants the creative passer, the only obvious candidate that I can see is Coutinho. He has been even more inconsistent than Buendia, and I was not expecting much from him this year, but I see this as his last big chance to make an impact.

I half wonder if Unai could put Tielemans and Kamara in the double pivot and try Doug further forward. Doug certainly has the passing ability; we're just more used to seeing him use it from deeper. I wouldn't expect Unai to start a match that way but I could see him experimenting with it for 20 minutes at the end of a match.

We have options. This situation is bad but not a complete disaster.

 

[Chicken Field]

For the game against Newcastle I expect we will see 

Martinez

Cash - Konsa - Mings - Torres

Mcginn - Luiz - Kamara - Bailey

Diaby - Watkins

 

Cash to overlap, leaving McGinn to help out more defensively, with Diaby going wide right to support, and Bailey attacking the left and Pau defending. 

 

 

[AndyM3000]

23 minutes ago, Chicken Field said:

For the game against Newcastle I expect we will see 

Martinez

Cash - Konsa - Mings - Torres

Mcginn - Luiz - Kamara - Bailey

Diaby - Watkins

 

Cash to overlap, leaving McGinn to help out more defensively, with Diaby going wide right to support, and Bailey attacking the left and Pau defending. 

 

 

This is what I think he wants to do but that Torres/Bailey combo against Valencia looked pretty bad, it didn't seem to work for me. They were both hooked at HT but it is hard to say if that was pre-planned. I think if we were starting the season with Luton at home he would just go with this but Newcastle away seems very risky. That side will be the busiest up against Trippier and Almiron, personally out of all the options I'd prefer to see Digne and Bidace because it will cause some caution from Newcastle, if they over commit and Bidace gets free they aren't catching him he's rapid.

[Chicken Field]

2 hours ago, AndyM3000 said:

This is what I think he wants to do but that Torres/Bailey combo against Valencia looked pretty bad, it didn't seem to work for me. They were both hooked at HT but it is hard to say if that was pre-planned. I think if we were starting the season with Luton at home he would just go with this but Newcastle away seems very risky. That side will be the busiest up against Trippier and Almiron, personally out of all the options I'd prefer to see Digne and Bidace because it will cause some caution from Newcastle, if they over commit and Bidace gets free they aren't catching him he's rapid.

I agree with most but would personally be surprised if we decide to start Bidace over Bailey. I think there is a very good chance we start with Digne

[DJBOB]

Probably the first match where I questioned Unai’s substitutions and in-game plan. Can’t help but feel the ripple effect of Buendia going down and subsequently Mings really threw Unai off. 
 
Shoehorning Bailey in to move McGinn to his less favored side caused issues all over in possession. Newcastle clearly targeted Bailey/Cash over and over to our detriment.

At HT, reeling from Mings - Tielemans comes on to play LM and McGinn to his favored side at RM and I thought McGinn was better here but unless Cash is overlapping, our width is non existent on the right side and Digne crosses get predictable against a tall Newcastle line. Additionally - Tielemans is not equipped to play that half space role so I hope we can dispel that notion. 
 
Then down 3-1, we shift to essentially a 532 with Cash and Digne as wingbacks but the result means that our pressure upfield is inconsistent and Newcastle were able to sit back and exploit a back 3 that has never played together when we lost the ball. 
 
Shit day all around and I’m sure Unai will turn it around but even a slight adjustment like playing Philogene on the left could’ve made a big difference. 

Edited August 13, 2023 by DJBOB

[Rich192]

Mings’ injury has hit me for six. I’m still devastated by it, all these hours later.

 

We need to establish the Torres and Carlos partnership as first choice now though. And that’s nothing against Konsa, who has generally been excellent under Emery. However neither he or Torres are dominant in the air, so Carlos is a must, and due to communication issues and style of play, it’s time we brought forward both of their introductions to the first XI. 

 

On paper, they’re the perfect Emery defenders, absolutely great with the ball at their feet. I feel we’ll need to adjust how deep our line is with these two, and it might take a few games for them to click properly, but I think it’s a must. 
 

For now, Konsa would absolutely be starting at right back, unless we buy a new right back, and I do think the injury to Mings will accelerate an offer for Foyth, who can play on the right and in the centre. 
 

It’s been an awful week, but we’ve still got quality players, and maybe this can make us an even better possession based team? Clutching at straws, probably. 
 

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Tyrone’s injury will massively impact how we defend corners, he must win about 80% of them for us, so adjustments needed there. We need Carlos, Torres, and Kamara to step up with this. 

[VillaAlex]

One concern ATM and it was very apparent in pre season was that the Premier League sides we faced had started to use late midfield runners to breach our high line. With the lack of recovery pace of no Moreno and now Mings we need to be very careful against sides with strong midfield runners. Typically yesterday we faced Newcastle who have a midfield full of them.

 

[DJBOB]

5 minutes ago, VillaAlex said:

One concern ATM and it was very apparent in pre season was that the Premier League sides we faced had started to use late midfield runners to breach our high line. With the lack of recovery pace of no Moreno and now Mings we need to be very careful against sides with strong midfield runners. Typically yesterday we faced Newcastle who have a midfield full of them.

 

I was more concerned about the lack of press which led to these easy breaks. 
 
Teams have been building more with a back 3 which outnumbers our 442 press. When we trigger the press on one side of the pitch, Newcastle were able to recycle it to the other side of the pitch and during our recovery phase, they would then have time to break the trap. 
 
It was okay for the first 60 but where it fell apart was where substituted in Diego for McGinn, the first real tactical mistake Unai has made for us. 
 
The resulting 532 shape offered no pressure on the ball and allowed Newcastle to pick apart a back line that has never played together with relative ease. Still don’t know why he did that. 

[Awol]

Assuming we don’t get another top CB in during this window, could see the 3 CB idea being binned and us returning to 2 CB and 2 FB. If we get Foyth in then him and Moreno playing with Carlos and Torres makes a lot of sense as our back four. Konsa and Chambers are good cover, until hopefully Mings returns at some point. 

[Zatman]

Moreno and Ramsey both out I think have destroyed our balance. We were playing better last season when Cash/Young was the defensive full back

JPB I would play vs Everton as am alternative to Ramsey

[mikeyp102]

One thing that surprised me negatively yesterday was our set pieces. When we beat Newcastle last year, every set piece was played on the deck, moving the Newcastle giants around. Yesterday we went back to putting the ball in high, which is bread and butter for Newcastle as they are a tall team.