Team shape, tactics and personnel

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Marka Ragnos said:

So many possibilities, but would like to see something like this, with JPB (RWB) in for Cash or Diaby, Buendia in for Diaby, Konsa (in for Diego), McGinn and Kamara for Dougie and Youri, Digne for Moreno, and Archer for Ollie as subs. The tricky part for me is what do with all our midfield talent. Our midfield cup runneth over ... I also would have no qualms with Konsa starting instead of Diego in this set-up. I want to see Bailey back on the left.

 

Ramsey, where Bailey is and McGinn where Cash is.....No Kamara?

Bit too attacking for me....ok with the ball, not so sure, without it.

[TomC]

Just now, Zatman said:

Kamara will be starting above Tielemans, they arent even playing for the same position

He might start above Tielemans, it might even be more likely, but I don't think it's certain after the last few preseason matches.

As for the same position...in the USA we saw all three combinations in the double pivot, Kamara-Doug, Kamara-Tielemans, Doug-Tielemans. It's pretty clear that Tielemans will be playing one of the pivots. Which player has more license to get forward may vary.

 

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, gilbertoAVFC said:

I suspect sometimes Cash and Digne/Moreno will compete for one spot in the team. If Cash plays, I think we end up playing the three with Torres/Mings covering as a defensive-minded, narrow left-back and Konsa covering Cash. If Moreno plays, I think we drop Cash and play Konsa as a defensive right-back to cover a marauding Moreno.

Just not sure it's quite a back five or three, think it'll be like a back 3.5 with the other "wing-back" more of an attacking player.

For certain opponents. Though if we play teams who want to defend against us in a low block we'll want Moreno and Cash to get forward so we can get a 2 2 6 overload to try beak them down.

[HKP90]

18 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I know that. It wasn't my question that I quoted. It was "we will cost us goals". What that really translates to is "It will cost us goals that we as fans will directly attribute to the high defensive line and oppositions effectively targeting the space in behind" 

I know, I was agreeing with your last sentence, when you said 'By choosing to engage them closer to their goal we can turn over balls in dangerous areas close to their goal.'.

I was giving some extra sauce to that comment, cos I think it's true.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, HKP90 said:

As I understand from reading 'Inverting the Pyramid' the effectiveness of pressing was backed up by a number of studies going back to the days of Viktor Maslov and Dynamo Kiev (Kyiv?). There is no definitive way of playing football, obviously, as it is what works under the circumstances, but apparently (again according to the book mentioned above) forcing a turnover in your opponents final third is 7 times more likely to lead to a goal than forcing a turnover in your own third. If anyone wants to question the source by all means take it up with Jonathan Wilson, I'm just passing on what was presented in the book.    

Its all about opinions, and trade offs.

The game is dynamic and always in transition, so its primarily about the ability to attack and defend when necessary, and how quick a team can morph in to the right mode. The more or easier you lose the ball, the quicker or more often you have to morph in to defence mode.

There is no right or wrong way, as such......The right system, is the winning one.

When you concede too many or fail to score regularly, its a good time to examine/revisit the the finer elements of the game.....There is no alternative to winning football, that is the holy grail.....We all want our football to be attacking, me too....but its not always possible, for a variety of reasons.....fortunately for us, we have a manager, who is well versed in both Attacking and the defensive side of the game.

There are oodles of books on football and quotes from all the top managers and they themselves have nuances, from each others philosophies....No one is necessarily wrong.

Statements like " Hard work will beat talent, when talent doesn't work hard" maybe scoffed at in some quarters, but it has an element of truth attached to it......funny how all the most talented teams, tend to work hard and more importantly effectively.

I like the quote from Pep some time ago, he said......" There are teams that wait for you, and teams that look for you...Espanyol, look for you.....I feel very close to their style of football.

Me too.

Ps that is what we did against Newcastle at home last season.....looked for them.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by TRO

[HKP90]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

Its all about opinions, and trade offs.

The game is dynamic and always in transition, so its primarily about the ability to attack and defend when necessary, and how quick a team can morph in to the right mode.

There is no right or wrong way as such......The right system, is the winning one.

When you concede too many or fail to score regularly, its a good time to examine/revisit the the finer elements of the game.....There is no alternative to winning football, that is the holy grail.....We all want our football to be attacking, me too....but its not always possible, for a variety of reasons.....fortunately for us, we have a manager, who is well versed in both Attacking and the defensive side of the game.

There are oodles of books on football and quotes from all the top managers and they themselves have nuances, from each others philosophies....No one is necessarily wrong.

Statements like " Hard work will beat talent, when talent doesn't work hard" maybe scoffed at in some quarters, but it has an element of truth attached to it......funny how all the most talented teams, tend to work hard and more importantly effectively.

I like the quote from Pep some time ago, he said......" There are teams that wait for you, and teams that look for you...Espanyol, look for you.....I feel very close to their style of football.

Me too.

Ps that is what we did against Newcastle at home last season.....looked for them.

 

 

Good post, well expressed.

[TRO]

48 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I know that. It wasn't my question that I quoted. It was "we will cost us goals". What that really translates to is "It will cost us goals that we as fans will directly attribute to the high defensive line and oppositions effectively targeting the space in behind" 

Its not just as simple as " It costs us goals".....Its more to do with the ease in which the opposition can breach us.....That breeds massive confidence,in to them,  when we should be squeezing that out and injecting doubt in to them.

The ball over the top, executed by talented players can find a cross in to the box in seconds and its an easy convert.....in comparison we are working damn hard in our build up play to create chances.....and fantastic by the way.

I am not questioning what UE is doing...because our last 15 games, last season, was great in terms of not conceding.....but we cannot simply abandon that, without consequences....I trust UE, to fix it back to what it was.

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by TRO

[Marka Ragnos]

51 minutes ago, TRO said:

Ramsey, where Bailey is and McGinn where Cash is.....No Kamara?

Bit too attacking for me....ok with the ball, not so sure, without it.

Ramsey for Bailey and McGinn for Cash works for me. Out of possession, Moreno and Cash simply drop back and Bailey and Diaby drift wide and you get more of a 3-2--2-1.

Aren't I amazing? 

[Reivax_Villa]

This passage of play was mind blowing..

 

[MWARLEY2]

Mings and Kamara in central defence. Torres and Luiz jn the double pivot. Thinking outside all the boxes here ! 

[thunderball]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

If it works that way its fine, its when it don't, there will be concern.

The back end of last season suggests that we found a way to limit the exposure to this and the goals against column, after the wobble ..Leicester, Arsenal and Man city where we were breached 11 times in 3 games....we regained our miserly approach in the next 15 games.

I think, (as much as I like attacking football), clean sheets and miserly conceding, breeds confidence and allows us to build the attacking side of our game.....concede too many, and the attacking side ,can be easily affected.

Its pre season, nothing to be alarmed about, but useful to be mindful of.

Champions are built on a strong defence, it’s what you need to get right first. You can score less than 38 goals and still win the league.

[Adam2003]

2 hours ago, thunderball said:

You can score less than 38 goals and still win the league.

No-one has ever done that, though, right? I am not going insane…?

 

[thunderball]

1 minute ago, Adam2003 said:

No-one has ever done that, though, right? I am not going insane…?

 

No. It was more of a technical point: if you don’t concede any goals, you could win every match 1-0 and be champions (you could likely afford a few 0-0 draws in that too)

[Marka Ragnos]

4 hours ago, Reivax_Villa said:

This passage of play was mind blowing..

 

This is how I always want to play on Fifa but my passes always get intercepted.  It's flowing liquid football, innit?

Edited July 31, 2023 by Marka Ragnos

[Pinebro]

12 hours ago, TRO said:

I don't want to hear any nonsense, if we lose games through it, or get knocked out of cups....its just a meaningful warning/danger...thats all.

I remember Martinez kicking it out long against United last season.

We lost the header and they ended up scoring.

You're going to concede goals no matter how you play. It's about being brave and controlling games and to do that you need to be prepared to take some risk.

We'll concede some goals because of it but it doesn't matter. We'll score more.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Pinebro

[CVByrne]

We're legit a very good side. We are a good passing team, with identity. We are good with our build up, we aren't predictable and we trigger opposition press to create the space. We've players to play over it now with Diaby adding that pace for getting on the quality Martinez long passes. We've got a series of quality options in the back line and midfield. We've a deep squad and some good young players too. 

I like that we are going to Europa Conference League instead of EL as it gives us easier games which can allow for more rotation and not distract too much from the focus on the PL.

I think it'll be key now how we add pressing to our game as I think that's the key piece now, it's why we need the squad depth as players will tire and need replacing during the game without the intensity dropping.

 

[LondonLax]

13 hours ago, HKP90 said:

At the end of the day a high line = more conceded, and more scored. I feel I need to point out, obvious as it is, that no matter what the former is, if the latter is higher, then....yay!

This is gonna be one hell of an entertaining season.  

No, that’s not necessarily true. The high line is about compressing space in the midfield when we are not in possession, making us harder to play through. We conceded far fewer goals once our high line was working well last season.

Under the previous manager, and Dean Smith for that matter, there was far more space available between our midfield and defence. Luiz looked awful trying to patrol so much space by himself and we regularly conceded soft goals with quick turnovers of the ball. 

[TRO]

11 hours ago, thunderball said:

Champions are built on a strong defence, it’s what you need to get right first. You can score less than 38 goals and still win the league.

I couldn't agree more.

This notion that it doesn't matter and we can score more , is fanciful.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, Pinebro said:

I remember Martinez kicking it out long against United last season.

We lost the header and they ended up scoring.

You're going to concede goals no matter how you play. It's about being brave and controlling games and to do that you need to be prepared to take some risk.

We'll concede some goals because of it but it doesn't matter. We'll score more.

I disagree with that.....We are still not good enough to concede easy goals, and score more....of course we will concede goals, but we have to make it difficult to do so ( thats the key)...that lowers the confidence of the opposition.

conceding easy goals, drains confidence......Its the ease of conceding which is critical bit.

We went up a level last season after the 11 goal wobble and it was primarily on the back of our miserly defence.

I don't want UE to make radical changes, to our system,  but I hope he shores up the over the top foot race, we have got in to in the USA pre season....that has us conceding too easily.

 

[Pinebro]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

I disagree with that.....We are still not good enough to concede easy goals, and score more....of course we will concede goals, but we have to make it difficult to do so ( thats the key)...that lowers the confidence of the opposition.

conceding easy goals, drains confidence......Its the ease of conceding which is critical bit.

We went up a level last season after the 11 goal wobble and it was primarily on the back of our miserly defence.

I don't want UE to make radical changes, to our system,  but I hope he shores up the over the top foot race, we have got in to in the USA pre season....that has us conceding too easily.

 

I disagree.

I hope we keep playing out from the back as much as possible.

By kicking it long you are handing over the initiative to the opponent.

All teams who dominate possession takes a lot of risk. Some times your high line will get beat but as been said many times the pros far outweighs the cons.