Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Tomaszk]

10 hours ago, TRO said:

we haven't got the midfield to play any system...and that remains the issue.

Codswallop.

1 minute ago, TRO said:

We have to place character, high on the list of attributes, to any new recruits....the whole team is full of melancholy.

As we did for three years under Smith. Got it right with nearly every player as well.

Remains to be seen what Gerrard's list of requirements is. His targets appear to have been chosen by Martin O'Neill which is a horrifying thought.

[VillaParkAvenue]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

I'm holding my judgement until I see if we can land Phillips or Bissouma. Failure to get either means we're shopping in the 3rd and 4th choice players and we're now cemented as a mid table side.

We’re setting us up to fail if we insist on only signing players who would be difficult for any team to sign, like Phillips and to some extent Bissouma. Players who either say they want to stay at their current club (Phillips) or now want to play at the highest level (Bissouma).

Chasing them is likely to end in failure, which seems unnecessary as there are comparable players in other leagues.

[Zatman]

5 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Definitely need a striker

If we sell one, I cant see a team taking Ings because his age/contract and Watkins on this form

If we sign a 3rd one to go without shipping one of these 2 then its Bruce all over. The manager will need to work with them if we cant ship one out, he is supposed to be a coach and improve players

[The_Steve]

7 minutes ago, Zatman said:

If we sell one, I cant see a team taking Ings because his age/contract and Watkins on this form

If we sign a 3rd one to go without shipping one of these 2 then its Bruce all over. The manager will need to work with them if we cant ship one out, he is supposed to be a coach and improve players

Ings is of a far higher calibre than Watkins 

[AV82]

1 hour ago, Zatman said:

Sorry I dont buy this, some of them might not be good enough but they are not a bunch of freeloaders. The days of Gabby, McCormack are gone

Not one player I would accuse of not pulling the weight. The management team on the other hand are making the players vulnerable by playing a shit system

Absolutely this.

[TRO]

14 minutes ago, picicata said:

He changed the system from 4321 to 4312. Gerrard asked the players to play quite differently to how he is now.

Wow, what a massive difference, I would call that a tweak.....and anyway, many folk said Danny and Ollie, couldn't play together, so which is it?...now its being mooted it's the better system.

As if one of the two in the first line up couldn't replicate the second line up, during the dynamics of the game....formations change anyway, with the dynamics of the game, from ascendency to retreat.

That is not the reason to see such a dramatic drop off in the performances of just about every player.....during the last 3 games....I am watching individuals and thats not a system problem.

[Zatman]

3 minutes ago, The_Steve said:

Ings is of a far higher calibre than Watkins 

I agree but he is nearly 30 and he came to us on a last deal. Cannot see Brighton for example pay 20 million for him and take on his wages

[picicata]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

Wow, what a massive difference, I would call that a tweak.....and anyway, many folk said Danny and Ollie, couldn't play together, so which is it?...now its being mooted it's the better system.

As if one of the two in the first line up couldn't replicate the second line up, during the dynamics of the game....formations change anyway, with the dynamics of the game, from ascendency to retreat.

That is not the reason to see such a dramatic drop off in the performances of just about every player.....during the last 3 games....I am watching individuals and thats not a system problem.

Actually it was a massive difference. The width was provided by one of the two front players going wide which meant that the full back could be more defensive, which in turn meant the number 8s could play through the middle without the worry of moving to the full back area. That's a major formation change not a 'tweak'

Of course some of our players are not up to it but the 4321 system is also damaging us and Gerrard seems determined to play it. He needs to accept that he doesn't have the players, play a formation for which he does and then change in the summer once he has the players he wants. Currently he is destroying good will and damaging team moral by forcing a foot into a glove.

[ozvillafan]

Kinda related, I guess:https://www.foxsports.com.au/football/football-news-2022-ange-postecoglou-manchester-city-interest-rated-by-city-football-group-celtic-manager-reason-unlikely-to-replace-pep-guardiola/news-story/8294f60c8ec039da05cd988fbbf9d267

It's an article about Postecoglou but this bit was interesting:

Quote

However former Celtic forward and joint Premier League topscorer Chris Sutton was baffled by the suggestion City would reject Postecoglou given his success everywhere he’s been.

“Do I think he could do it at that level? We’re talking about a guy with an unbelievable track record, but he’s sneered at because his track record has been in Australia and Japan,” Sutton said.

“People do sneer at him and we’re questioning if he’s good enough to take a job in the Premier League. What more does he have to do?

“Aston Villa have just taken Steven Gerrard in, and things aren’t going so well for Aston Villa, but has Ange Postecoglou achieved more in his managerial career than Steven Gerrard?

“Arsene Wenger was unheard of, wasn’t he? He was laughed at, sneered, a schoolteacher, that’s what Arsene Wenger was when he took over at Arsenal. What a career he had.

“So why are we doubting Postecoglou, who managed his national team at a World Cup, whether he could manage in the Premier League? I find that preposterous.”

FWIW, I'd take Postecoglou in a heartbeat.

[og1874]

1 minute ago, picicata said:

Actually it was a massive difference. The width was provided by one of the two front players going wide which meant that the full back could be more defensive, which in turn meant the number 8s could play through the middle without the worry of moving to the full back area. That's a major formation change not a 'tweak'

Of course some of our players are not up to it but the 4321 system is also damaging us and Gerrard seems determined to play it. He needs to accept that he doesn't have the players, play a formation for which he does and then change in the summer once he has the players he wants. Currently he is destroying good will and damaging team moral by forcing a foot into a glove.

The 4-3-2-1, IMO, works fine once the 2 are sitting properly between the 3 and the 1, providing width when attacking and dropping to make something of a 5 in the middle when not in possession. Having them both as 10s puts way, way more pressure on the middle, as you rightly say the 8s then have to push wider and deeper to cover the full backs, giving us a midfield of 1 when the other team breaks. That's my biggest concern with the current setup - we don't have the personnel for it. We basically need a midfield 3 of the quality of a Viera, Petit, and Makalele to pull it off

[TRO]

5 hours ago, picicata said:

Actually it was a massive difference. The width was provided by one of the two front players going wide which meant that the full back could be more defensive, which in turn meant the number 8s could play through the middle without the worry of moving to the full back area. That's a major formation change not a 'tweak'

Of course some of our players are not up to it but the 4321 system is also damaging us and Gerrard seems determined to play it. He needs to accept that he doesn't have the players, play a formation for which he does and then change in the summer once he has the players he wants. Currently he is destroying good will and damaging team moral by forcing a foot into a glove.

I disagree with your Inference.

Gaps can be exploited by a savvy opposition, in both systems....and its also interesting to note, when we played wingers, they wasn't creating any impact at all, they just got easily negated, and become passengers, thus impacting the energy of the team.

Players have to perform with intensity, urgency and vigour, and play on the front foot with conviction, for ANY system to work.

Tactics and Formations alone....will not bail you out of poor individual application...too much store is put on it IMO.....and we have changed much of it under 2 managers and STILL the same issues rear their ugly head.

I accept that when we retreat at times, during a counter attack, we have no organised back line or a line in front and we look like a gaggle of geese, floundering all over the place......maybe we miss John Terry's influence, but we do have a nigh on International back 5, so you would think they should know, anyway.

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by TRO

[og1874]

Just now, TRO said:

Its also intersting to note, when we played wingers, they wasn't creating any impact at all, they just got easily negated, and become passengers, thus impacting the energy of the team.

It all stems from the centre midfield. We're just too easy to play through however we line up. At this stage I feel like we could play 4-6-0 and we'd still have teams going through the middle third like we're soggy tissue paper

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, og1874 said:

It all stems from the centre midfield. We're just too easy to play through however we line up. At this stage I feel like we could play 4-6-0 and we'd still have teams going through the middle third like we're soggy tissue paper

I couldn't begin to agree more.

The problem is also, the issue is so long in the tooth.....It has affected every other player in the team.....its dragging them all down, in terms of self motivation.

They say "a stitch in time saves nine"  and we are reeling from the ignorance of that.

Edited April 5, 2022 by TRO

[og1874]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

I couldn't begin to agree more.

The problem is also, the issue is so long in the tooth.....It has affected every other player in the team.....its dragging them all down, in terms of self motivation.

They say "a stitch in time saves nine"  and we are reeling from the ignorance of that.

Yeah, you almost get the feeling there's a bit of "what's the point" in terms of the way the CMs approach the game. It's inevitable they're going to get overrun, stretched, and played through, so despite the fact that they're professionals, you've got to imagine that it's, at the very least, a massive issue sub-consciously. Maybe that's got them trying too hard to do certain things, which is taking away from their game and causing the silly mistakes

[The_Steve]

11 minutes ago, og1874 said:

It all stems from the centre midfield. We're just too easy to play through however we line up. At this stage I feel like we could play 4-6-0 and we'd still have teams going through the middle third like we're soggy tissue paper

For me, the midfield is in need of a massive fix - they don’t sufficiently cover the full backs (thus negating their ability to get forward) which has a knock on effect for both formations. It’s clear how much we’ve missed Nakamba. That style of midfielder works so well in tandem with the hybrid midfielders we have. It’s a shame Sanson has had so many injuries. Teams cut through the midfield like butter far too often and we often leave our full backs too exposed. 

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Have they really though?

Promoted, survived and then finished 11th with our highest points total in a decade. 

but the decade was hardly worth "Writing home about".....It was a blight in our history.

Promotion as desperately grateful as it was, was in actual fact a penalty shoot out, that got us over the line.....Hardly an endorsement to team, with an ambition to take the big league by storm....if it wasn't for one exceptional player, all those dreams may have been, just that dreams.

We have failed to control games or dominate possession, for a very long time now....and with the current 3 costing less than £20 mill is it any wonder - while accepting more spent isn't everything, but the RIGHT players are - 

I think a picture can be painted, on both sides of the view.....it depends on which one we believe in.

I think our current issues, have been around for some time now.....The soft underbelly description, is not something new....and opposition teams, seem so savvy to it.

[DCJonah]

Just now, TRO said:

but the decade was hardly worth "Writing home about".....It was a blight in our history.

Promotion as desperately grateful as it was, was in actual fact a penalty shoot out, that got us over the line.....Hardly an endorsement to team, with an ambition to take the big league by storm....if it wasn't for one exceptional player, all those dreams may have been, just that dreams.

We have failed to control games or dominate possession, for a very long time now....and with the current 3 costing less than £20 mill is it any wonder - while accepting more spent isn't everything, but the RIGHT players are - 

I think a picture can be painted, on both sides of the view.....it depends on which one we believe in.

I think our current issues, have been around for some time now.....The soft underbelly description, is not something new....and opposition teams, seem so savvy to it.

It's a different discussion but I disagree with the notion that players have been taking the piss over the last few years. 

Under Smith, these players have put us back to the level we hadn't been at for over a decade. They've allowed us to now build and look at challenging for Europe. 

Now all of a sudden we're turning on them all. Yes we need improvements but let's not rewrite history. 

[hippo]

55 minutes ago, TRO said:

Perhaps another bit of misinformation, to put with the rest.

He doesn't strike me as a shouter....I think he is quite a deep thinker and responds with action.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a big turnover in the summer, whether thats right, is another debate, but I think it will happen.

I think he has grave doubts about the character of sections of the side.

I think the players (any players) would have doubts about Stevie G and his narrow formation.

[TRO]

8 minutes ago, og1874 said:

Yeah, you almost get the feeling there's a bit of "what's the point" in terms of the way the CMs approach the game. It's inevitable they're going to get overrun, stretched, and played through, so despite the fact that they're professionals, you've got to imagine that it's, at the very least, a massive issue sub-consciously. Maybe that's got them trying too hard to do certain things, which is taking away from their game and causing the silly mistakes

I sit down at games now, and expecting what you allude too.....However, I was pleasantly surprised to see a spring in the step against Southampton....I saw pressing as opposed to semi pressing, I saw a quickness to the ball, I hadn't seen for some time. and I can see this distinction between good and bad performances, it stands out for me.

I think the belief in our players is fragile, and what you allude to with the "enforcer" is paramount...It is almost like they are resigned to being overrun or played around.....I think being pulled about, is causing the silly mistakes, by all....the composure necessary to take control dissipates.

In seasons gone by, we would have a player who would go in hard early on and set the tone for the game, make their marker on the game and the crowd wouod also respond....The initiative would be won and the creative players would take over, from there.

This team, is like that player/s is missing, so we can't get going properly.

[og1874]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

I sit down at games now, and expecting what you allude too.....However, I was pleasantly surprised to see a spring in the step against Southampton....I saw pressing as opposed to semi pressing, I saw a quickness to the ball, I hadn't seen for some time. and I can see this distinction between good and bad performances, it stands out for me.

I think the belief in our players is fragile, and what you allude to with the "enforcer" is paramount...It is almost like they are resigned to being overrun or played around.....I think being pulled about, is causing the silly mistakes, by all....the composure necessary to take control dissipates.

In seasons gone by, we would have a player who would go in hard early on and set the tone for the game, make their marker on the game and the crowd wouod also respond....The initiative would be won and the creative players would take over, from there.

This team, is like that player/s is missing, so we can't get going properly.

Yup. We don't have a single midfielder in the entire squad where you imagine an opposition midfielder looking at the team sheet and thinking "Christ, I don't fancy that today"

Instead it's almost definitely a case of the opposition manager saying "Let them have the ball in midfield, put a bit of pressure on, and they'll do something stupid. If they don't just let them pass it around, hit a sloppy one, and go straight through them"

No other tactics are needed against us beyond that IMO