Crewe and Nantwich byelection. Who will win?

[snowychap]

The value of and in society is not purely measured in terms of pounds and pence.

So why is tax always the big issue for voters ?

Ok, I should have said 'ought not to be measured'.

Why is tax a big issue? Because, in general, people are selfish and can only relate to things directly affecting them.

Were you happy bailing out Northern Rock from your tax money ?

I think Northern Rock either ought to have been nationalised last year or let go to the wall.

Ship building , was dead in the water there were no orders no requirements at that time ... It would have been foolhardy of any governemnt to continue chucking money at it .. a tough decision but the needs of the many do outweigh the needs of the few whatever Dr Spock may tell you

I'll excuse the terrible pun, Tony. :winkold:

I didn't have you down as an advocate of utilitarianism?

I also do not think that any decision made about manufacturing industries in the 80s was made for those kind of idealogical reasons.

have you been to Newcastle lately ? it's got more wine bars than London and has becoem a thriving town once again ..

I'm not sure the geordies would be thanking you for calling their city a town.

Kidderminster has a few wine bars now...

It does not have such a thriving carpet industry, however.

I don't think you'd have to travel many miles from Newcastle in order to find areas which are not thriving. If it bears any resemblance to other cities in the north - regeneration has not been, generally, much to the benefit of those who lived there. Those who lived there have found themselves forced out of those areas and further away from any access to this regenerated thriving metropolis.

a quick google will show you that Thatcher is revered amongst the greatest PM's of our history .. I don't see Brown making that list ... I think people fail to remember the state of the country when Thatcher took control

I won't get into a 'Thatch is good or bad' argument because I think that is missing the point.

[Witton_Lane]

to that bloke from the Manchurian Candidate?

he looks nothing like Denzil Washington :-)

I was referring to Meryl Streep and well you know it, pedant

[bickster]

So this was Labours Campaign Strategy?

Dear oh fecking dear, is it any wonder the voters of Crewe and Natwich deserted them?

How fookin sad, no party that goes around follwing the opposition candidate with people dressed in top hats because the other candidate is a "toff" deserves to be elected.

Especially when The Dunwoody child (Tamsin - hmm very Working Class) was actually listed in Burkes Peerage

Further proof that Labour has become morally bankrupt, devoid of ideas and totally desperate

Oh yes and calling the by-election before Gwyneth Dunwoody had actually been buried made her daughter seem a tad calous, another gross error

[Richard]

The election machine seems to have imploded with the absence of Mandelson, Campbell and Bliar. Who'dhave thunk it

[Risso]

It's been a while since I've seen anybody as completely out of their depth as Gordon Brown. He may or may not have been a decent Chancellor, but he's a **** awful Prime Minister. I bet he wishes he'd called that General Election now, at least he'd be out of his misery.

[Gringo]

a quick google will show you that Thatcher is revered amongst the greatest PM's of our history .. I don't see Brown making that list

Once again a repitition of a misrepresentation of a skewed debate. She was voted (by political scientists, not any representative grouping of people) "great" on the grounds that she was able to implement the policies she wanted, not on the grounds that her policies were any good.

The election machine seems to have imploded with the absence of Mandelson, Campbell and Bliar. Who'dhave thunk it

I do believe on the now pruned "blair - book of remembrance thread" that many of the tory posters were saying that labour had got rid of bliar because he was an electoral liability and argued against the fact that blair was a supreme electoral stratagy worker, and now these same tories are changing their shoes. Who'd have thunk it.

[ianrobo1]

I will always say this but if it was not for Iraq, Blair would still be PM and leading a government doing well.

He would have also been able to challenge Brown from a position of power

When history is written, Iraq may prove to be the conclusive point in this

[Gringo]

When history is written, Iraq may prove to be the conclusive point in this

I think you may be onto something there, but I'm afraid it won't be winning no pullitzers.

[ianrobo1]

well Gringo you do wonder don't you IF we had not gone into Iraq and the subsquent accusations of spin, Lines, David Talyor etc. that Blair would have wone a bigger majority than 66 last election when Labour lost an hell of a lot of votes to Lib Dems

then maybe he could have gone for the more radical programme he said he regretted not going for

[nrogers]

I will always say this but if it was not for Iraq, Blair would still be PM and leading a government doing well.

Well, you will find most of the country disagreeing with you there, I feel... Iraq was 1 point of hundreds!

[ianrobo1]

no Nick, without Iraq the last election would have been a larger majority and I doubt then blair would have stepped down but took on Brown

it is all about defining points

[Risso]

I agree with Ian, Tony Bliar's decison to invade Iraq has buggered the Labour Party good and proper. Serves Brown right for being in too much of a hurry to take over though, he should have let Tone lose the next election, then he could have had a good go at Cameron who probably isn't going to be much cop to be honest.

Still, despite costing the country billions and knackering his own party, Blair's doing alright out of the war thanks, so that's OK.

[ianrobo1]

point is Risso and this is all pure speculation that no iraq would have meant a bogger labour majory and more power to Blair to appoint his chosen successor and take on brown

all if's and buts

like what would have happened IF thatcher had not forced through the Poll Tax

or IF no Falklands war

[bickster]

Brown - Dead Man Walking. Labour's only very slim chance of electoral victory now rests with them ditching Brown completely and I doubt even that will work

[Gringo]

Brown - Dead Man Walking. Labour's only very slim chance of electoral victory now rests with them ditching Brown completely and I doubt even that will work

It's not over yet - prepare for the bounceback

Brown 'must change course' to win

Gordon Brown can win the next general election for Labour providing he changes course, former foreign secretary Margaret Beckett has said.

The prime minister's leadership has come under pressure from within his party after defeat in Thursday's Crewe and Nantwich by-election.

Ms Beckett said Labour had to learn from the electorate's "clear desire to see a change of course".

Mr Brown has said he can steer the UK through "difficult" economic times.

Ms Beckett told BBC Two's Newsnight programme that Mr Brown had a track record of success.

"There is absolutely nothing to say that provided we listen to the electorate, and learn from their clear desire to see a change of course, there's nothing whatsoever to say the result of the next general election is set," she said.

And here's a picture of gordo modelling his new image

[blandy]

I agree with Ian, Tony Bliar's decison to invade Iraq has buggered the Labour Party good and proper. Serves Brown right for being in too much of a hurry to take over though, he should have let Tone lose the next election, then he could have had a good go at Cameron who probably isn't going to be much cop to be honest.

Still, despite costing the country billions and knackering his own party, Blair's doing alright out of the war thanks, so that's OK.

Me too.

It's hypothetical, but if we hadn't gone to war, with all the consequences then a huge number of the bad news stories over the past 5 years or so wouldn't have happened. And we'd have a lot more money.

Thus the global financial stuff could have been ridden slightly less painfully, and people might have been more likely to look on Labour in a less critical light. As it is, the current stuff has been like the last straw, instead of just a mid-term dip.

For all that Brown isn't nimble enough to be Prime Minister, much of the difficulties he now has were caused during the time when Bliar was pm (and Brown was going along with him).

Chickens roosting.

What no one know, and a lot of people are dubious about is what different things Tories would do if they got in. So far, I haven't heard anything that makes me think they'd be any different.

[bickster]

exactly right blandy

[ianrobo1]

again agree with most of what Pete says and your last point about the tories is spot on. Yes their PR is better but on every major problem we have not heard their solutions and only then can they be tested

it is always the case that the incumbent government loses elections not the oppositon winning them

[Richard]

I now seriously think Brown will be out before the election

[Awol]

I now seriously think Brown will be out before the election

Or, as likely, Brown's resignation will trigger an election. They cant put another unelected PM in without getting a mandate from the country.