Generic Virus Thread

[sidcow]

4 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Not had a jab but also not had the virus.

Theres folks here and beyond who are on their second rounds of having contracted the virus despite their self-righteous views having had the jabs. 
 

Maybe people should just take more care not to contract the virus as I do rather than banging on about the dangers of the unvaccinated as though we’re now some kind of lower human being.

Getting fking sick of it to be honest now, excuse the pun.

 

[Mic09]

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

I agree on the child bit, they're not who's clogging up our ICU's. What Israel does is their issue.

The issue is the unvaccinated adults with underlying causes who's raving about storming test centres, spreading misinformation and the idiots who believe in them.

The median age in the EU for unvaccinated admittals is 48. For vaccinated is 79. It's a no brainer to at least get two shots even if you don't agree with the booster.

 

100%.

But I would wager that the group of 10% of UK population that isn't vaccinated (about 6 million people or so?) is not all extreme right wing youtube watching vaccine centre storming lunatics.

We are talking about a very small, shouty minority. But as I keep saying, there are many shades of grey and different reasons people don't get it. (Although most definately should!).

[Panto_Villan]

1 hour ago, desensitized43 said:

It is subjective but as you point out it also relies on the data and how you interpret it. A 50% increase seems quite a big increase to me.

Is there not also a compounding affect here as well? If flu kills 30000 people a year on average (a figure I just made up) and then a new virus comes along and kills 45000 a year (an increase of 50% on flu deaths), that's now 75000 a year dead on average rather than 30000 - giving you a figure of 150%. That's a figure called "excess deaths".

It was the difference between 60 deaths a day (flu) and 90 deaths a day (covid). And that was with the more deadly Delta variant too. One of those things is completely ignored by society, the other one requires people who test positive to quarantine themselves for 10 days even if they are key workers and wholly asymptomatic. I don't personally think that's proportionate, given 60 deaths was apparently not worth bothering about at all.

And no, if flu usually kills 30,000 a year and kills 30,000 people on top of covid killing 45,000 a year then the excess deaths are still just 45,000 a year. The stuff that excess deaths is meant to capture is covid indirectly killing people by affecting society in other ways - i.e. if cancer usually kills 50k people but this year it kills 60k people, then there's 10k excess deaths most likely attributable to cancer care being affected by covid related issues.

[magnkarl]

4 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

100%.

But I would wager that the group of 10% of UK population that isn't vaccinated (about 6 million people or so?) is not all extreme right wing youtube watching vaccine centre storming lunatics.

We are talking about a very small, shouty minority. But as I keep saying, there are many shades of grey and different reasons people don't get it. (Although most definately should!).

The issue is that the stats show that this minority, no matter what their stance on the vaccine is, clog up the ICU's. That is the core of the issue. Whether or not they belive in chips, 5g or Bill Gates doesn't matter to those statistics or to the overloaded health system. When will people get this through their thick skulls?

Edited January 5, 2022 by magnkarl

[Mic09]

1 minute ago, sidcow said:

Sorry, I just saw that and edited my post as you responded.  I've not seen this before but as I say it is contradictory to pretty much every reporting I've seen on this matter.

I know, there are 2 other studies that I read that I can't locate now that pretty much confirm this one. If I find them I'll post them.

In the depths of the internet and the shit you find all over it, it is very difficult to find anything. 

So I guess that if professor Whitty says one thing on the TV next to Boris, but the data shows something different (although various studies will show various results) it's no wonder people start to question things. One day the BBC says Omicron is vaxxine resistant. The next day, Boris says everyone should get the booster of that same drug.

People are angry and confused - that's it. 

This is why closing down the discussion and 'cancelling' anyone who questions the government message can backfire. We should educate and persuade - not ridicule people!

Hence, I don't agree with people who don't get vaxxed up. I think it's silly. But, I think ridiculing them as a lunatic doesn't do much good! 

[Seat68]

I don't know where these unvaccinated covid deaths are coming from, they were all so careful. If only there was some protection. 

[magnkarl]

3 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

I don't know where these unvaccinated covid deaths are coming from, they were all so careful. If only there was some protection. 

My coworker has lowered his standards to comparing how the unvaccinated are treated to the holocaust. Me having family who died in the holocaust finds this whole thing an absolute low that deserves a punch to the nose. He then went on to say that if it's going to be like this then we should also start dissing people who have cancer due to smoking or overeating too.

It's like they don't understand the difference between 15 minutes in a vaccination centre and contracting cancer or being gassed to death. Jesus christ.

My great grandfather who got gassed to death and my aunt who died slowly from cancer would bite his #¤"#4 hand off for a 15 minute cure to their suffering thanks. Egotistical prick.

Edited January 5, 2022 by magnkarl

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

No. There is no "right" on the anti-vax side in this debate. I wish people would stop regurgitating that. 

If you don't get vaccinated you increase the risk to yourself, our health system and to the chance of us developing new variants. 

If you don't have a medical reason not to take the vaccine then you're honestly just being stubborn and egotistical. EU wide the admissions are 60-70% in favour of unvaccinated, in example in the Nordics where the unvaccinated constitutes about 7% of the adult population. These 7% are essentially keeping Norway and Denmark in pandemic style social lockdown where kids are not allowed to do sports, go to school and everything social is heavily regulated. Is that fair?

If, like me, you're anywhere near your 50-60's, you've already been vaccinated under a mandated programme for Polio, Mumps and a whole host of other illnesses. Stop crying and get on with it.

Some people can be vaccine hesitant (for many reasons) so it’s wrong to use these labels and to just tell people to “stop crying and get on with it”. 

(Yes I am vaccinated). 

[a-k]

12 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I have literally just posted a study showing that although it's worth getting vaxxed for increased protection, natural immunity caused by the disease gives better protection in infection, symptomatic disease or hospitalisation.
 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

 

And how's about all those whose "enhanced immunity" from naturally contracting the virus is useless, since they died from the infection?

[sidcow]

12 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Not had a jab but also not had the virus.

Theres folks here and beyond who are on their second rounds of having contracted the virus despite their self-righteous views having had the jabs. 
 

Do you seriously still not get it?  Seriously?

Oh, all my friends have had Covid despite having had the jab and not got ill

Oh, some of my friends have had Covid despite having had the jab and still got ill

Don't you get that if they hadn't been jabbed they might well be dead?  The only reason they didn't get really ill, or the only reason they did get very ill and didn't die was because they had been vaccinated.

[Mic09]

4 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

The issue is that the stats show that this minority, no matter what their stance on the vaccine is, clog up the ICU's. That is the core of the issue. Whether or not they belive in chips, 5g or Bill Gates doesn't matter to those statistics or to the overloaded health system. When will people get this through their thick skulls?

Agreed, but it's not just them.

What about people who stuffed their faces with McDonalds, never exercised, helped themselves getting diabetes. They are in an extreme risk group who clog up ICU's, not only for covid, but for other diseases where we unnecessarily spend our doctors efforts . Can we put the blame on them too?

Is it ok to say they all have thick skulls and are all to blame for the shit we all have to go through? 

Is there any data of how many obese people under 55 died of Covid vs non obese? 
 

[sidcow]

12 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

100%.

But I would wager that the group of 10% of UK population that isn't vaccinated (about 6 million people or so?) is not all extreme right wing youtube watching vaccine centre storming lunatics.

We are talking about a very small, shouty minority. But as I keep saying, there are many shades of grey and different reasons people don't get it. (Although most definately should!).

A woman I work with got FAIRLY ill as she hadn't been vaccinated last August.

She's not an extreme right wing youtube watching vaccine centre storming lunatic.  But you can bet your bottom dollar that she's been influenced by their echoes resonating through facebook.

[a-k]

35 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

If you end up in hospital and you ae Anti-Vax,  surely they (anti-vax people) understand that medical staff will inject you or on a drip many combinations of drugs and treatments desperately trying to keep people alive.

Even untried and tested combinations I guess in the hope of saving someone's life when things go downhill fast as you reported.

The thing they don't want is drugs and medicine put in their body,  1 or 2 shots of Covid Vaccine could prevent 5, 10 or 20 different treatments if they end up in ICU ?

I don't understand.  

Or those that say "this is a scamdemic, covid is just a cold", and then juice themselves up on monoclonal antibodies, ivermectin, etc. if they test positive, as if that was their routine treatment in the past when they had yearly colds.

[magnkarl]

2 minutes ago, Morley_crosses_to_Withe said:

Some people can be vaccine hesitant (for many reasons) so it’s wrong to use these labels and to just tell people to “stop crying and get on with it”. 

(Yes I am vaccinated). 

It's ironic isn't it. The most rabid anti-vaxxers now claim that they don't want to be labelled as it makes them sad, yet they're wearing derogatory shirts, spouting BS and believing in hugely inflammatory rhetoric. The term hypocrite doesn't even cover it.

[magnkarl]

4 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Agreed, but it's not just them.

What about people who stuffed their faces with McDonalds, never exercised, helped themselves getting diabetes. They are in an extreme risk group who clog up ICU's, not only for covid, but for other diseases where we unnecessarily spend our doctors efforts . Can we put the blame on them too?

Is it ok to say they all have thick skulls and are all to blame for the shit we all have to go through? 

Is there any data of how many obese people under 55 died of Covid vs non obese? 
 

The fat people in the ICU would bite your hand off for a vaccine that would cure their overweight. That isn't even an argument.

[Mic09]

2 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

The fat people in the ICU would bite your hand off for a vaccine that would cure their overweight. That isn't even an argument.

For most obese people, that is diet and exercise. It's a vaccine that has existed since the beginning of time. 

Are you suggesting lifestyle choices play no part in health outcomes? 

[Panto_Villan]

2 hours ago, hippo said:

Only 50% higher ?

That sounds like the mother of all increases to me. I think it was 2017 where flu was 9% higher (death rate).

50% more deaths than normal flu sounds seriously bad to me.

OK, so if covid was only killing 9% more people than flu, would that then warrant the same response we gave that bad flu season (i.e. society did absolutely nothing about it)? Is that the level where we can go back to normality in your book?

[magnkarl]

3 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

For most obese people, that is diet and exercise. It's a vaccine that has existed since the beginning of time. 

Are you suggesting lifestyle choices play no part in health outcomes? 

I'm suggesting that the difference between losing 5 stone and 15 minutes in a vaccination centre is not comparable at all. It's a hyperbole comparison and nothing but a strawman argument.

[sidcow]

6 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Agreed, but it's not just them.

What about people who stuffed their faces with McDonalds, never exercised, helped themselves getting diabetes. They are in an extreme risk group who clog up ICU's, not only for covid, but for other diseases where we unnecessarily spend our doctors efforts . Can we put the blame on them too?

Is it ok to say they all have thick skulls and are all to blame for the shit we all have to go through? 

Is there any data of how many obese people under 55 died of Covid vs non obese? 
 

We've been here before.  I have diabetes and eat too much and don't exercise enough.  I know I should and I go through phases of trying to exercise more and eat better, but it's a long term condition and like all diets it's hard to keep it up and give in to temptation.  And like all unfit people if you are not built in your mindset to love exercise it's hard to keep going, even knowing it could eventually kill you.  I just can't explain it and there is no quick or easy fix.

However, If I could have an injection or a pill that would make me change my psychology on this I definitely would.   I'd give anything to be one of those people who love going for a run or off to the Gym.

But at least me and my ilk will drip into hospitals at regular intervals over years and not all turn up in the space of 12 months complaining about why we are dying in the corridor.

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

9 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

It's ironic isn't it. The most rabid anti-vaxxers now claim that they don't want to be labelled as it makes them sad, yet they're wearing derogatory shirts, spouting BS and believing in hugely inflammatory rhetoric. The term hypocrite doesn't even cover it.

I don’t really know how this is a response to what I posted. Did you mean to quote me? I was talking about why some people might be vaccinate hesitant for reasons other than stubbornness and ego. And how it’s not helpful to tell all currently unvaccinated people to stop crying and get on with it.