Police state or the state of policing

[VILLAMARV]

5 hours ago, ender4 said:

They have probably chased/followed these 2 particular boys hundreds of times over the years.

If the story I came across in the Mirror (While trying to find any of the things you've posted being reported and not doing so) has any truth to it at all this might not be the flex you think it is.

Quote

A police officer had a grudge against the two teenagers killed in a scooter crash before the Cardiff riots - and had previously tried to "run them off the road", a friend claimed.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/police-officer-had-grudge-against-30061951

[VILLAMARV]

6 hours ago, bickster said:

Regardless of anything else those kids may and may not have done it’s illegal to have two on a bicycle with one seat. Also it seriously looks like that’s an illegally modified e-bike as in the video it certainly looks to be doing over 15.5 mph and given the weight of an e-bike and the extra body on it going above that speed pedalling over that speed on a legal bike which cuts out at 15.5 seems highly unlikely. 

That’s not to say the police should have been chasing them in the manner they did but there’s already evidence of criminality. The illegally modified bike (which makes it a moped technically) The 2 people on it, no driving licences (for moped) as they are too young, no insurance…. The danger to other road users and pedestrians is quite clear.

You're right Bicks. Criminals it is then.

[VILLAMARV]

Feral though is a bit too de-humanising for my taste.

Thanks for reminding me how far we have to go.

[ender4]

54 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

Feral though is a bit too de-humanising for my taste.

Thanks for reminding me how far we have to go.

To stop thugs attacking police? To stop criminal gangs and crime families ruling areas? Yes agreed we have far to go.

 

1 hour ago, VILLAMARV said:

If the story I came across in the Mirror (While trying to find any of the things you've posted being reported and not doing so) has any truth to it at all this might not be the flex you think it is.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/police-officer-had-grudge-against-30061951

Quoted by "a friend" of the family... the same gang/family trying to pin the blame on the police. They are hardly going to say something in support of the police.

[chrisp65]

7 hours ago, ender4 said:

Ok, lots of details are now known…

The boys were feral criminals with a long track record of terrorising the neighbourhood. 

One of the kids comes from a very influential crime family who rule that area. 

When they found out that their kid had died, they messaged a lot of people to attack the police and basically organised the riots. It wasn’t spontaneous. 

A lot of local people are scared to speak out in the media because of the influence of this crime family, but not many local people are feeling sorry for this family. 

The video released by a member of the public from a ring doorbell was half a mile away from the crash. At the time of the crash, the police van was on a different street (one street away). That’s why there was conflicting information whether the police turned up after the crash or not.

What is also true is that the police hadn’t messaged in to say they were chasing the boys as is protocol. They were ‘following’ the boys instead lol. They have probably chased/followed these 2 particular boys hundreds of times over the years.

Any news on what source was reporting the riots were pre planned by the dead kids’ parents?

It’s just that it would be odd for the police to have established who organised the riots quite this quickly, and a bit politically tricky for them to arrest the parents at this stage. 

So I was just interested where you picked that info up from. 

 

[VILLAMARV]

36 minutes ago, ender4 said:

To stop thugs attacking police? To stop criminal gangs and crime families ruling areas? Yes agreed we have far to go.

 

Quoted by "a friend" of the family... the same gang/family trying to pin the blame on the police. They are hardly going to say something in support of the police.

I can't help but notice you quoted these two posts but aren't interested in providing the source for yours. 

Are you also not responding to the one about you laughing at two teenagers dying?

But yeah, I'm aware of the source for the mirror article it's in the article and I'm not suggesting the Mirror is the bastion of truth either but notice how I posted a link.....

But to answer the final point do you honestly believe de-humanising people will aid anyone in the quest? Or like me, would you agree it's part of the problem? Respect is surely earned. And that works both ways. What example is being set to the Ely community by this sort of slur? If they feel picked on I can't imagine picking on them will solve that problem will it.

The cycle continues and the status quo will remain. People that feel left behind and sneered at in our society are unlikely to want to join in are they? And that (as I suspect you know really) was the point I was making.

But by all means carry on laughing it up and attempting to win some internet points. 

[ender4]

13 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

Are you also not responding to the one about you laughing at two teenagers dying?

But by all means carry on laughing it up and attempting to win some internet points. 

7 hours ago, ender4 said:

What is also true is that the police hadn’t messaged in to say they were chasing the boys as is protocol. They were ‘following’ the boys instead lol. 

I think you've completely misunderstood. I said lol because i didn't believe the police - they said they were following the boys not chasing them. The lol is me saying what's the difference, chasing and following is basically the same.

 

As for the source about the criminal family - just look at any Cardiff forum chat, Reddit forums, speak to people in Cardiff - the family is VERY well known to locals. The media aren't reporting that, it's just known in (that part of) Cardiff.  and there are whatsapp/text messages screenshots going round of people being called to the area to fight the police.

edit - I'm going to leave this conversation now, i don't really care much either way, it was just interesting this morning but i'm sure there are more newsworthy things happening now.

Edited May 24, 2023 by ender4

[VILLAMARV]

1 hour ago, ender4 said:

I think you've completely misunderstood. I said lol because i didn't believe the police - they said they were following the boys not chasing them. The lol is me saying what's the difference, chasing and following is basically the same.

Fair enough, that wasn't entirely clear though in the context of the rest of your posts on the topic. Apologies.

1 hour ago, ender4 said:

As for the source about the criminal family - just look at any Cardiff forum chat, Reddit forums, speak to people in Cardiff - the family is VERY well known to locals. The media aren't reporting that, it's just known in (that part of) Cardiff.  and there are whatsapp/text messages screenshots going round of people being called to the area to fight the police.

So it's that reddit thread then. There's quite a bit of that reddit thread entitled I'm from Ely....

The bit about "I used to respect the police until I moved here and watched them goading the locals" for instance. They seem to think similarly to me. There's proper 'orrible criminals there (It's Ely, we all know that's true) and as well as that the behaviour of the police at times leaves a lot to be desired.

As other posters are aware I recently moved from Cardiff. I spent over a quarter of my life there. I know the area quite well and I know people that have lived and do live in Ely. The lucky ones got out. It's one of the poorest parts of the largest city in one of the poorest areas in Europe. Poverty, crime, addiction and unemployment are rife. Throw in some hot weather and some kids dying after a police chase, sorry 'following' and you just threw a match on the tinderbox.

1 hour ago, ender4 said:

edit - I'm going to leave this conversation now, i don't really care much either way, it was just interesting this morning but i'm sure there are more newsworthy things happening now.

fair enough, enjoy the sunshine

[bickster]

44 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

... after a police chase, sorry 'following'...

Even that bit is pure speculation at this stage. Police have doubled down tonight and say that van was half a mile away from the crash at the time

If that proves to be untrue, all hell will let lose

[chrisp65]

4 minutes ago, bickster said:

Even that bit is pure speculation at this stage. Police have doubled down tonight and say that van was half a mile away from the crash at the time

If that proves to be untrue, all hell will let lose

Not necessarily untrue, just potentially not as uninvolved as that sounds. According to ‘local journalists’ there’s a good reason the van was on a different road. Had they followed the bike directly they’d have encountered bollards, the police always go the other way round.

That from a journalist on BBC radio earlier, a bit cheesed off the police story appeared to be ‘evolving’.

I’m not sure anyone is going to come out of this with much credit.

 

[VILLAMARV]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

Not necessarily untrue, just potentially not as uninvolved as that sounds. According to ‘local journalists’ there’s a good reason the van was on a different road. Had they followed the bike directly they’d have encountered bollards, the police always go the other way round.

That from a journalist on BBC radio earlier, a bit cheesed off the police story appeared to be ‘evolving’.

I’m not sure anyone is going to come out of this with much credit.

Police have confirmed the movements of the van. Witnesses say what the radio man said

Quote

South Wales Police have confirmed the van turned off Stanway Road into Howell Road and then went on to Grand Avenue, which is the route to take to loop around the estate and bypass the bollards.

“The police can’t get up that way, so when the police are saying they had a van on Grand Avenue they had no choice but to go that way,” Leanne said.

“It’s a bit too much of a coincidence. They got there within a minute of the crash and already had a van on Grand Avenue. That’s the way they would have had to go.

https://nation.cymru/news/witness-describes-seeing-police-pursuit-of-teenage-boys-before-cardiff-crash/

[bickster]

Having looked at a map of those roads, how are the police supposed to have caused the crash? They weren't in pursuit of the bike by the time it got to Snowdon Road, its 250m from Howell Rd to the bollards at the end of Stanway Road. They'd have had to negotiate those bollards at an extremely slow speed, then cross Wilson Rd to get onto Snowdon Rd, its like the end of that road was specifically designed to stop people on illegal e-bikes from going through the road, its not just bollards at the end of a road, it's bollards, that make a fence and two pedestrian gateways either side of the fence, impossible to do that at anything but a crawl. They'd have known they weren't being followed at that point and which way the police would have gone. They could have turned right onto Wilson Road and gone in the completely opposite direction to the police but they didn't, they went onto Snowdon Rd where the crash occurred. I don't see how the Police can be responsible for it

[VILLAMARV]

9 hours ago, bickster said:

Having looked at a map of those roads, how are the police supposed to have caused the crash? They weren't in pursuit of the bike by the time it got to Snowdon Road, its 250m from Howell Rd to the bollards at the end of Stanway Road. They'd have had to negotiate those bollards at an extremely slow speed, then cross Wilson Rd to get onto Snowdon Rd, its like the end of that road was specifically designed to stop people on illegal e-bikes from going through the road, its not just bollards at the end of a road, it's bollards, that make a fence and two pedestrian gateways either side of the fence, impossible to do that at anything but a crawl. They'd have known they weren't being followed at that point and which way the police would have gone. They could have turned right onto Wilson Road and gone in the completely opposite direction to the police but they didn't, they went onto Snowdon Rd where the crash occurred. I don't see how the Police can be responsible for it

It's the misinformation we woke up to on tuesday morning bicks. I'ts the playing of semantics when 2 kids are dead when it turns out there was some police involvement in the lead up to this crash. I'm not claiming they are going to be in court charged with XYZ but they have some complicity. Maybe complicity is not the right word there, legally, but it's pre 9am and I haven't had 2 cups of tea yet . Perhaps it's just that they would have taken a different route or taken more attention to what they were doing if they weren't being tailed. We'll never know. We don't know why they were being tailed yet. What crime were they suspected of or committing that warrants a police van tailing you round an estate? IF it is that they are riding around on an e bike, giving their mate a backie, without a helmet, which is all we can really tell from the video, does that warrant the response it got?, does it normally garner this response?, does everyone else get followed in the same way for the same crime? Have they followed protocol? and if not why not? it seems like an easy thing to dismiss but I'd be surprised if that van is fitted with the cameras that record evidence like you see on stop police camera shows, so if as you suggest it's modded in a way that makes it illegal and their road traffic offenses a bit more severe - and given that they were apparently known to the police anyway then why not record evidence and pop round the house later rather than up and down a residential area adding to the risk to the public. Protocol isn't always just red tape for red tapes sake is it? But all those things are for the future for us, the general public. We'll find out, or perhaps not, over time.

And like chris says, they're not as uninvolved as SWP led us to believe, so why the false statements? Yes there are variables there too but I think we've covered them, but pretty stupid move to come out and say *it's false rumours circulating on the social medias, we were nowhere near it and responded after the event*. When in reality - and the thing to remember here for me, in the context of the rioting later, is everyone in the area potentially witnessing it - the vehicle that was first on the scene was tailing them around until they got to the place with the bollards, so the kids went that way, the police got he long way round and the next time they convene is to pick up dead bodies. Whether there's a legal responsibility there it's not hard to understand why this might anger the locals but why the lies? It's not an action that screams innocense. But again, we'll find out, or not.

I read last night in one of the police statements that the van responded and there were thought to be no other vehicles involved. I couldn't discern whether they meant no other police vehicles responded or that the bike didn't hit another vehicle. The rumours were that they hit a bus. Still haven't seen that reported though, but I might have missed it.

All the people messaging incitement to riot will be prosecuted, even statements on facebook celebrating it. Lots of people will be getting summonses. Rioting is always indefensible. I just side with the likes of MLK where it would be impossible of me to condemn the rioting without also condemning the conditions. Ah, I'll go find the language of the unheard quote, he'll say it better than me.

[VILLAMARV]

[bickster]

Bringing the Cardiff Riot / Pursuit stuff in here where it belongs

Another video of the "pursuit" has emerged. That first one definitely appears to be speeded up.

 

[bickster]

So here's a crude map

Red dot is the location of the new camera angle, blue line is the path of the van, yellow line is the path of the bike and the black mess is the location of the "bollards. Also a picture of the boilards, which as I said earlier would be extremely difficult to navigate on any form of bike at less than walking pace.

I really don't see how the Police caused this

[chrisp65]

I don’t think anyone on here has suggested the police caused it. I think a couple of us have pointed out an evolving narrative where they started off quite categorical that they were completely uninvolved and tweeked the story once they were told about the invention of the ring doorbell.

This is not a defence of the kids or an excuse for any behaviour. It’s not about picking a side, it’s about expecting a level of service from the police that should be easily achieved.

Yes, I’m holding the police to a higher standard than I would two kids. Put it like this, when I was a nipper if the police had accused me of something my parents would have battered me. If the police told me my kids had done something wrong, from my own personal experience of dealing with the police (very little involvement with the police but wholly negative) I would no longer automatically presume the police version of events was in any way accurate.

[bickster]

13 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I don’t think anyone on here has suggested the police caused it. I think a couple of us have pointed out an evolving narrative where they started off quite categorical that they were completely uninvolved and tweeked the story once they were told about the invention of the ring doorbell.

This is not a defence of the kids or an excuse for any behaviour. It’s not about picking a side, it’s about expecting a level of service from the police that should be easily achieved.

Yes, I’m holding the police to a higher standard than I would two kids. Put it like this, when I was a nipper if the police had accused me of something my parents would have battered me. If the police told me my kids had done something wrong, from my own personal experience of dealing with the police (very little involvement with the police but wholly negative) I would no longer automatically presume the police version of events was in any way accurate.

So do you still believe the Police statement to be untrue?

[Seat68]

Where was the dog whilst this went on?

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, bickster said:

So do you still believe the Police statement to be untrue?

It’s not about picking a side and choosing who to believe. It’s also not as black and white as being ‘untrue’. It’s not untrue they weren’t on the same road. It is possible they had been following them so were involved in some capacity. It is possible they were still following them, via the route they always take when the follow the boys on the bikes. So it’s possibly not the whole truth. If it isn’t the whole truth, why would they do that, tell a half truth they’ve then had to partly correct?

I wouldn’t pretend to have got the inside line from a screen grab posted on Reddit and I wouldn’t have done what the South Wales police & Crime Commissioner did in his role of holding the police to account and simply read out the statement they gave him.

Wait for the outcome of the investigation is probably the best answer.