Israel, Palestine and Iran

[OutByEaster?]

The fuel allowance thing that Israel have come out with today is performative politics at its best. 

The headline we get is "Israel allows in more fuel to help with humanitarian issues in Gaza" - and the headline is ridiculous.

The truth is that the 120,000 litres a day they're letting in would just about fill about the tanks of two big supermarket petrol stations - for a population that's twice that of Birmingham and doesn't have any other method of generating power.

It's a drop in the ocean, it's theatre, not humanitarian aid.

 

 

 

[LondonLax]

13 hours ago, omariqy said:

Palestinians have been persecuted for 75 years so honestly this doesn’t surprise me as heartbreaking as it is. Israel are just creating more hatred. 100 civilians for every Hamas member. There’s no world where that ends in a good result. It’s almost like people are disregarding anything that happened before October 7th. It’s the new line in the sand for every thing to be judge on now. 

Of course Jewish people have been persecuted for quite a while as well and Hamas and other groups have been creating  hatred since their inception, but you still only seem to post things from one side in this thread.

[Jareth]

4 hours ago, LondonLax said:

Of course Jewish people have been persecuted for quite a while as well and Hamas and other groups have been creating  hatred since their inception, but you still only seem to post things from one side in this thread.

How can anybody not take a side as it stands?

[omariqy]

4 hours ago, LondonLax said:

Of course Jewish people have been persecuted for quite a while as well and Hamas and other groups have been creating  hatred since their inception, but you still only seem to post things from one side in this thread.

I don’t talk about Jewish people as a whole, only Israel. Jewish people existed long before Zionism and many are still opposed to it. 

[blandy]

16 minutes ago, Jareth said:

How can anybody not take a side as it stands?

How many sides are there?

[chrisp65]

New footage released from beneath the hospital.

[blandy]

4 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

New footage released from beneath the hospital.

If you zoom in on the area he’s pointing at, you can see some kind of monster terrorist giving orders to two fighters with body armour 

[chrisp65]

That’ll be the editor of the Jewish Chronicle there trying to rubbish journalism that doesn’t parrot the IDF line and simply broadcast their edited manipulated footage. Confusing Israel and Jewish, just like nobody else is supposed to.

Query the version put out by the IDF without verification? Why that means you’re an anti semite sir.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by chrisp65

[Jareth]

16 minutes ago, blandy said:

How many sides are there?

There’s the dead folks and there’s the whole lot of dead folks. 

[blandy]

36 minutes ago, Jareth said:

There’s the dead folks and there’s the whole lot of dead folks. 

I’ll take that as there are 2 sides, then. And as you have asked  “How can anybody not take a side as it stands?”, have you picked Hamas as your side, or the IDF?

[Jareth]

29 minutes ago, blandy said:

I’ll take that as there are 2 sides, then. And as you have asked  “How can anybody not take a side as it stands?”, have you picked Hamas as your side, or the IDF?

Quality framing there dude. 

[magnkarl]

This is starting to become George W level ridiculous. ‘Look at that there yellowcake!’

It’s time for some grown ups to step in. This is what the UN is made for, if they can’t allocate some soldiers to establish control and keep Iran from egging on Israel to commit wide scale breaches of the Geneva convention then what is the bloody use?

UN have shown themselves to be absolutely ridiculously toothless when it comes to keeping the world peaceful since their inception. Srbrenica, Ukraine, Crimea, Palestine, Kurdistan, Myanmar, Kashmir.

A bigger waste of money than flying career politicians around the world to posture, and then only to be voted down by the veto-rules of the powerful will be hard to find. 

[blandy]

44 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Quality framing there dude. 

Go on then, I asked 2 questions, the first because you said how can anyone not pick a side - I asked how many sides there are, to try and understand what you meant - for example if there are only two sides (Israel and Palestine) then picking a side kind of means accepting that your side's violence and killing is sort of justified or OK.

You replied that there were the dead killed by Hamas and the dead killed by Israel - and as you said "how can anyone not pick a side?" again, you answer implies you've picked only one side with which to sympathise.

The reason behind my line of questioning was to perhaps prompt an answer from you (or anyone else reading) like, actually "picking a side is neither justifiable, nor desirable - both sides are committing horrific, condemnable acts, and actually the entrenched sides are the problem, leaving the innocents on both sides in an awful situation. It needs people to stop picking sides and start ending the killing.

[Jareth]

13 minutes ago, blandy said:

Go on then, I asked 2 questions, the first because you said how can anyone not pick a side - I asked how many sides there are, to try and understand what you meant - for example if there are only two sides (Israel and Palestine) then picking a side kind of means accepting that your side's violence and killing is sort of justified or OK.

You replied that there were the dead killed by Hamas and the dead killed by Israel - and as you said "how can anyone not pick a side?" again, you answer implies you've picked only one side with which to sympathise.

The reason behind my line of questioning was to perhaps prompt an answer from you (or anyone else reading) like, actually "picking a side is neither justifiable, nor desirable - both sides are committing horrific, condemnable acts, and actually the entrenched sides are the problem, leaving the innocents on both sides in an awful situation. It needs people to stop picking sides and start ending the killing.

Equally you can read what I said as a description of civilian deaths - we are on the same page on that one. But we are not at the end of civilian deaths in this conflict, and we need to be. Equivocating constantly applies no pressure whatsoever to the slaughter that is happening continually, and daily, and being lied about by the Israeli regime. 

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Equivocating constantly applies no pressure whatsoever to the slaughter that is happening continually, and daily, and being lied about by the Israeli regime. 

Not siding with either of the two sides is not "equivocating". Taking a stance that they're both doing and have done awful things is not equivocating. But regardless of that, what you or I or anyone else types on the internets is of zero consequence in "applying pressure". Your apparent desire, or as you wrote incomprehension as to how anyone could not pick a side is, to me, kind of indicative that you personally have picked a side - otherwise you'd clearly understand why others have not. You've posted quite a lot of stuff which is skirting the boundaries of various tropes, though clearly with no malice, which leads me to think you've picked the side of Palestine and Hamas. That's fine, it's a free world. Personally it's not something I would feel comfortable doing, and not would I feel remotely comfortable picking Israel and Netanyahu as "my side". He's an ogre. Israel's actions have been and continue to be abhorrent, as is the case with Hamas, too. In this horror there's no "these are my guys".

You're right that Israel is lying, Israel is bombing, Hamas is firing rockets, holding women and small children and elderly people hostage under gunpoint and vowing to repeat the atrocities of 7 October over and over again.

But we're just chatting crap on a football website, exchanging views.

[Jareth]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

Not siding with either of the two sides is not "equivocating". Taking a stance that they're both doing and have done awful things is not equivocating. But regardless of that, what you or I or anyone else types on the internets is of zero consequence in "applying pressure". Your apparent desire, or as you wrote incomprehension as to how anyone could not pick a side is, to me, kind of indicative that you personally have picked a side - otherwise you'd clearly understand why others have not. You've posted quite a lot of stuff which is skirting the boundaries of various tropes, though clearly with no malice, which leads me to think you've picked the side of Palestine and Hamas. That's fine, it's a free world. Personally it's not something I would feel comfortable doing, and not would I feel remotely comfortable picking Israel and Netanyahu as "my side". He's an ogre. Israel's actions have been and continue to be abhorrent, as is the case with Hamas, too. In this horror there's no "these are my guys".

You're right that Israel is lying, Israel is bombing, Hamas is firing rockets, holding women and small children and elderly people hostage under gunpoint and vowing to repeat the atrocities of 7 October over and over again.

But we're just chatting crap on a football website, exchanging views.

I honestly cannot fathom why you’ve said I’ve chosen Hamas? Personally I take it as an absolute given that nobody on here supports a terrorist organisation. Thank you though for saying I’ve no malice. I don’t. I’m just conscious that debate is stifled by the fear of causing offence. I’m clumsy as hell but I’m glad I’m still on here - I appreciate all points of view and try to learn every day. 

[VILLAMARV]

On 17/11/2023 at 08:30, blandy said:

Told by who? 

in terms of getting elected and potentially stopping war or not stopping war then his advisers, lobbyists, security councils, secret services, people with higher security clearances than the president - take your pick. I think the idea of the elected man being all powerful in ways to reign in the industrial military complex is rather naive in this day and age. Especially when neither could be described as all about the peace in their respective terms in office. Whatever their electioneering said at the time.

[blandy]

Just now, Jareth said:

I honestly cannot fathom why you’ve said I’ve chosen Hamas?

I don't think for a moment you support what Hamas does, just that "your side" from what you've written, seems to be the one of which Hamas is part. I think that's naive.

Following what you've typed: you wrote that you chose between "the dead folks [civvies and soldiers killed by Hamas]" and "the whole lot of dead folks [civvies and Hamas fighters killed by Israel]." You then said "you can read what I said as a description of civilian deaths" - so choosing to place your support only to dead Palestinians. If you only have sympathy for Palestinian dead, but not Israel dead civilians, that implies something, doesn't it?

If you'd answered that there are (say) 4 sides (rather than just the two), and those 4 are Israel Gov't/IDF,  Hamas, Israeli civilians and Palestinian civilians and you're with the last 2 of them, then that would be clearer. And is I suspect, more what you actually mean, and why I asked "how many sides are there?" to see if that was the case.
 

So if you actually mean "I support a 2 state solution and want better and equal treatment for Palestine and Palestinians" that's grand by me. I do too.

We both want the killing and terror to stop. That's not "picking a side", though, to my mind. Both sides need to be involved, and that means Netanyahu gone (and tried in court) and Hamas gone (and/or tried in court). The two current governments are both utterly unfit for anyone's support - and that's my answer to "how can anyone not pick a side".

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

in terms of getting elected and potentially stopping war or not stopping war then his advisers, lobbyists, security councils, secret services, people with higher security clearances than the president - take your pick. I think the idea of the elected man being all powerful in ways to reign in the industrial military complex is rather naive in this day and age. Especially when neither could be described as all about the peace in their respective terms in office. Whatever their electioneering said at the time.

There are no people with higher security clearances than the president. Too many conspiracy theory films.

I agree with some of your post, but not that Biden is being told what to do and just following whatever "they" tell him to do.

[OutByEaster?]

The additional orders for people to head south today are starting to make this look like the worlds biggest kettling operation - we will soon have more than two million people in an area that would fit between Kingstanding and Stirchley. That'd be what, five or six times the number of people that live in that part of Birmingham?

Oh, and that'd be an area with no electricity, no clean water, no access to medicine and a nightly shower of high explosive ordnance.

If this goes on another couple of weeks, the death toll is going to be enormous.