Israel, Palestine and Iran

[LondonLax]

2 minutes ago, Thug said:

They know where they are.

Hamas have offered to release them.

The Israeli government have refused this offer.

The release of the hostages is the polar opposite of what they want.  They are desperate for the hostages to die in captivity so that they can use that as an excuse to continue the bombardment.

stick the posters up on the Israeli embassy wall where they can be seen by the people that can actually bring them home.

I’m not sure if you actually believe what you have written here but if you do it possibly reveals more about your prejudices regarding the Israeli government than anything else.

[Thug]

Just now, LondonLax said:

I’m not sure if you actually believe what you have written here but if you do it possibly reveals more about your prejudices regarding the Israeli government than anything else.

Which bit?

[Chindie]

9 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

The point is the pictures of kidnapped children are a form of propaganda. There is nothing anyone in London can do to find them, putting up missing persons posters has not been done by their relatives. The purpose is not about the individuals in the poster, they are there to maintain sympathy for the Israeli cause.

Thank you. Someone who gets it. Someone who understands things.

[Tumblerseven]

13 minutes ago, Thug said:

They know where they are.

Hamas have offered to release them.

The Israeli government have refused this offer.

The release of the hostages is the polar opposite of what they want.  They are desperate for the hostages to die in captivity so that they can use that as an excuse to continue the bombardment.

stick the posters up on the Israeli embassy wall where they can be seen by the people that can actually bring them home.

hamas offered to release them and israeli have refused?

Dude your framing is actually wild its disgusting. 

oh my god and it got worse...

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Tumblerseven

[Thug]

4 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

hamas offered to release them and israeli have refused?

Dude your framing is actually wild its disgusting. 

 

 

Woah, that was reported by an American news channel.

not my framing.

let me find the YouTube video 

And what is it with you and your obsession with trying to catch me out?

Ive said a million times the hostages need to be released.  Hell, they  shouldn’t have been taken in the first place.  

I want them released. As soon as possible, without conditions.

No doubt Hamas put conditions on their release, but the Israeli side have so far refused to negotiate.  
 

There have been Israeli officials on tv That have quite clearly stated they will not negotiate with terrorists.

What framing did I use?

Edited October 25, 2023 by Thug

[Mozzavfc]

16 minutes ago, Risso said:

No, of course not. But there are "events" that happen in the course of conflict, then there's choosing to behead children. And that's obviously, far, far worse than just about anything, surely?

Not that I'm picking sides or downplaying terrorist attacks but didn't this turn out to be fake (or embellished) news?

[Tumblerseven]

4 minutes ago, Thug said:

Woah, that was reported by an American news channel.

not my framing.

let me find the YouTube video 

And what is it with you and your obsession with trying to catch me out?

Ive said a million times the hostages need to be released.  Hell, they  shouldn’t have been taken in the first place.  

I want them released. As soon as possible, without conditions.

No doubt Hamas put conditions on their release, but the Israeli side have so far refused to negotiate.  
 

There have been Israeli officials on tv That have quite clearly stated they will not negotiate with terrorists.

What framing did I use?

i dont understand why people not calling this stuff out in this forum. I really dont... you should be shamed like actually you are copy of that momo person or whatever who straight up used lies and propaganda until i came and called them out.

[Keyblade]

26 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

The point is the pictures of kidnapped children are a form of propaganda. There is nothing anyone in London can do to find them, putting up missing persons posters has not been done by their relatives. The purpose is not about the individuals in the poster, they are there to maintain sympathy for the Israeli cause.

Might be rocking the boat a bit here, but you can acknowledge this, and also acknowledge that it's not good to take them down. 

[MaVilla]

@Tumblerseven, do you support a two state solution?

[chrisp65]

25 minutes ago, Risso said:

No, of course not. But there are "events" that happen in the course of conflict, then there's choosing to behead children. And that's obviously, far, far worse than just about anything, surely?

I genuinely don’t understand your point?

Are you suggesting I’ve minimised it by saying events instead of listing all the disgusting crimes? 

[Thug]

6 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

i dont understand why people not calling this stuff out in this forum. I really dont... you should be shamed like actually you are copy of that momo person or whatever who straight up used lies and propaganda until i came and called them out.

Wow

ive seen this tactic somewhere before… not quite sure where…. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Thug

[Tumblerseven]

7 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

@Tumblerseven, do you support a two state solution?

yesterday i gave my opinion about the conflict solution pretty clearly you can find it i believe in you.

@Thug where is that video?

Edited October 25, 2023 by Tumblerseven

[Thug]

29 minutes ago, Thug said:

Woah, that was reported by an American news channel.

not my framing.

let me find the YouTube video 

And what is it with you and your obsession with trying to catch me out?

Ive said a million times the hostages need to be released.  Hell, they  shouldn’t have been taken in the first place.  

I want them released. As soon as possible, without conditions.

No doubt Hamas put conditions on their release, but the Israeli side have so far refused to negotiate.  
 

There have been Israeli officials on tv That have quite clearly stated they will not negotiate with terrorists.

What framing did I use?

 

not the exact video I was referring to, which I shall continue to look for

around the 2:35 minute mark:

 

Quote

We heard from the head of the national Security Council of Israel today that are not and will not be any negotiations…

American reporter before you start debunking it.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Thug

[Thug]

8 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

yesterday i gave my opinion about the conflict solution pretty clearly you can find it i believe in you.

@Thug where is that video?

oh don’t you worry, I’ll find that video for you.. and then you will apologise, and admit that the Israeli government are not putting the hostages first.  

[magnkarl]

40 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

The point is the pictures of kidnapped children are a form of propaganda. There is nothing anyone in London can do to find them, putting up missing persons posters has not been done by their relatives. The purpose is not about the individuals in the poster, they are there to maintain sympathy for the Israeli cause.

But surely that is the same as when we’ve had Ukrainian boots/flags, ruined Russian tanks and when people put up other symbols in London that doesn’t necessarily talk about a domestic issue no?

One can want to keep focus on the fact that children have been kidnapped here without it being propaganda. If people tear these posters down the bar is very low for what people will tolerate.

[LondonLax]

7 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

But surely that is the same as when we’ve had Ukrainian boots/flags, ruined Russian tanks and when people put up other symbols in London that doesn’t necessarily talk about a domestic issue no?

One can want to keep focus on the fact that children have been kidnapped here without it being propaganda. If people tear these posters down the bar is very low for what people will tolerate.

Yes, those are also forms of pro Ukrainian propaganda of course. 

Do we know if the relatives of the children were even asked if they were comfortable with pictures of their kids being displayed all over London? 

I am not advocating for tearing down Ukrainian flags or pictures of Israeli kids, just acknowledging that it is indeed propaganda, put up to influence hearts and minds.

Edited October 25, 2023 by LondonLax

[MaVilla]

19 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

yesterday i gave my opinion about the conflict solution pretty clearly you can find it i believe in you.

@Thug where is that video?

i think i found it.

 

 

[MaVilla]

20 minutes ago, Thug said:

American reporter before you start debunking it.

tbf, i would propose that American journalists are some of the least reputable and truthful out there, if they told me the sky was blue i would make sure to look outside and check if it were true for myself.

 

[Thug]

10 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

tbf, i would propose that American journalists are some of the least reputable and truthful out there, if they told me the sky was blue i would make sure to look outside and check if it were true for myself.

 

Oh I know that, and you know that…

 

[VILLAMARV]

22 hours ago, Tumblerseven said:

Okay i retract my comment about hypocrisy but do you understand how people can see or perceive your comments on October 7th minimizing and justifying the events??

I signed up to a public forum and chose to post in it. Of course I'm aware people can see what I write. That's why we all write it. As for perception  I'm obviously aware people's perceptions exist but I'm also aware that I have no control over how others perceive what I write, nor should I, nor would I want to. Apart from perhaps, arguably, in the words I select to make my point. I'd like to think, most of the time, I choose them wisely enoough to be understood. If I'm misunderstood I'd encourage people to ask for clarification. It's a neuro diverse world out there after all. I have misinterpreted posts in the past if I'm honest. I'll leave perception management to the authoritarian regimes and PR firms around the world though myself. I don't think it's a thing that genuine discussion is based upon and I don't think it encourages genuine discourse. As I've said, I don't agree with your accusations. I can categorically state that it certainly was not my intention to minimise or justify anything. I was, and remain, utterly appalled at the violence. All of the violence. I don't live in a binary world.

Quote

When terrorists were still killing people you made these statements:

What is the relevance of this statement? I have no idea of the timeline of that day. I only knew about these latest barbaric attacks because I was scrolling through VT. I'm not following them in real time. Is there a window where certain discourse should be stifled in your view?

Quote

Statement 1: The question of exactly when violence becomes 'justified' in a moral sense is a fine philosophical debate.

Statement 1: To make this comment in the middle of the terrorist attack and imply that it would be fine philosophical debate to debate when violence is justified. I think is automatically trying to justify the violence.

example: United States white supremacist shoots up a bar with 50 black people. Person X comes to forum and starts talking about how it would be a fine philosophical debate to debate when violence is justified. I dont think many people would let that slide.

Firstly, you're attacking a strawman here because you're quoting me out of context. I'm saying this in response to a post by , lets call them, poster B, Who asks me directly what has the violence solved? pointing out that both sides have done violence that only ever gets everyone worse off - which is the bit I agreed with for the record - the bits I disagreed with are already on the record. I'm not sure it's worth repeating them (but page 84 for anyone remotely interested).

This after having quoted me responding to, lets call them, Poster C who I thought had asked a rather pertinent question. Namely what peaceful, legal action do the Palestinians have in their locker that they haven't realised or tried yet in order to get their land and homes back? There is a debate taking place on that page between a number of us about what justifies violence and when violence becomes justified. I'm weighing in on that discussion that starts a page before. It's commentary on the conversation the 3 of us are engaged in.

Secondly, you're ignoring the fact that I placed the word justified in inverted commas. There's a reason for doing so. It highlights that I am pouring scorn on the very notion of violence being justified.

Your example is another example of a strawman argument through fallacy of relevance. That's me trying to keep my commentary of it polite.

Quote

Statement 2: But the defining point there is what other actions were left open to the human beings having to live through the torture, the beatings, the denigration, the subhuman treatment?

Statement 2: Implying there is no other option to the Palestine people but to do these kinds of actions justified by their torture beatings denigration and subhuman treatment.

Again I'd suggest you are selectively quoting me out of context (it's part of the conversation outlined above). I am absolutely, unequivocally and unashamedly comparing the apartheid regime in South Africa which this sentence is obviously written about, to the plight of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. I think the giveaway was in the same post as all this is from, me calling the Israeli regime and I quote, "a murderous apartheid regime". I did so because I think the current regime is a murderous apartheid one. I think that because of the murder and the apartheid and the war crimes. The Hamas people are also appalling. As well as the Israeli regime. As myself and others have said, because that's our opinion, neither of those two entities occupy the moral high ground.

Do you think either of these entities is occupying the moral high ground?

Quote

Statement 3: You qouted MLK: It's impossible for me to condemn the rioting, without also condemning the conditions that lead to the rioting.

Statement 3: Your defense was i was just quoting MLK. I dont understand if we pretending to not know what implications are or what?

Example: I steal i cookie and you start quoting me Quran about thiefs punishments where its recommended to cut thief hands. Do you understand that the implication is to cut my hands because i stole the cookie? If not explain what the implication would be.

The bit there that I do agree with is "I don't understand". It's probably obvious to most posters that you haven't understood. I suggested that might be the case in our last exchange, but rather than listen to what I said and incorperating it into your reply - or indeed asking what I meant - you've chosen to reply like this.

I paraphrased a well know MLK quote, I did so rather badly and I posted the full quote to correct myself a page later. If you bother to read that then you will see your accusation is way wide of the mark. It's a famous quote about not justifying anything. It's about being critical of both sides.

I have literally no idea what you're trying to say in your example

Quote

Explanation: Before your MLK quote there was another comment by OutByEaster? he said: Not so much a war, more a prison riot.

So i believe its very clear that you saw what OutByEaster? said and then with MLK quote you tried minimize the events. Phrase Prison riot automatically minimizes the terrorist attack. Prison conditions automatically gives justification to the terrorist attack.

Perhaps if I had 'liked' or responded to that post in any way I could understand why you're making this ridiculous accusation. All you are doing here is playing snap with words. And I think you're making yourself look a bit silly. Obviously it's another strawman argument, but then that seems to me to be your modus operandi based on your posts.

I don't know why you've chosen to ignore the other posts I have made, especially the ones where I refer to the barbaric actions of Hamas, and instead have gone back through the thread to selectively quote something put of context from 3 weeks ago to play some weird game of gotcha. You're way wide of the mark.

Thank you for at least withdrawing your personal accusation of hypocrisy. Perhaps you might consider withdrawing the rest of them.