Tumblerseven Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 10 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I've been watching the news today in terms of the hospital bombing - there was wide coverage yesterday that concluded that it was very likely the taped conversation between the two members of Hamas was fraudulent - there's been more information today on the device itself, with analysis of the video/audio that's emerged suggesting it's unlikely to have a been a fragment from a missile - I'd recommend Channel 4 news. The beheading thing was a fascinating example of how the journalism of war and politics works - for starters, we've got an absolutely horrific murder of infants, a war crime in the eyes of absolutely any sensible opinion. I suspect someone present was so keen to ensure the world understood how awful it was, how truly horrific, that they over-egged the pudding to a journalist and added beheadings - the UK press in particular leapt on it - beheaded babies is such a strong image, it sells papers, it screams a message and it allows a shortcut to a justified anger. Journalists in Israel and members of the Israeli government quietly suggested it hadn't happened - we had Netanyahu releasing shocking pictures of dead infants, I think to ensure that even though the beheading claim was wrong, the strength of the crime itself wouldn't be underplayed based on the inaccuracy of one rash claim - it was still a truly chilling, heartless crime. Quietly pretty much all of the media were rolling back on it at exactly the time that the President of the USA claimed he'd seen pictures of it - again, a President using an image as a shortcut to making a point to a lot of people on the seriousness of a crime. US officials have quietly suggested since that it wasn't what he saw or said - but at this early stage in the Presidential cycle in the US, the President claiming to see things he hasn't seen isn't something that can be true - so it became true again for a couple of days before everyone quietly rolled back on it. It's an horrendous war crime and should be treated as such - but there's no evidence of the beheading of babies. Then we've got the President of the USA boldly claiming he'd been able negotiate with Israel a secure access to Gaza for a symbolic convoy of twenty aid lorries through the border with Egypt - it didn't happen the next day as there needed to be repair to the roads in Gaza as Israel had reportedly bombed the area after the announcement - that still hasn't happened as the Israeli's are delaying it on the basis of their concerns it'll wind up in the hands of Hamas. Much of that is my opinion - I've read a lot of things in the last couple of weeks, I'm sure a lot of us have. I heard that and i just watched the channel 4 news coverage of that hospital bombing its not very serious lets be honest. Who was behind the Gaza hospital blast – visual investigation - YouTube maybe there is another video that im missing. You say its very likely taped conversation between the two members of Hamas if fraudulent. Are you basing what channel 4 said? Their argument was and i quote: Hamas calls it obvious fabrication two independent Arab journalists told us the same thing because of language accent syntax dialect and tone. Non of it they say credible. Doesn't sound very serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: This story leaves a fair few questions: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67175094 It suggests that following the ground war, Israel will not return to accepting responsibility for providing electricity/water etc to Gaza in line with the responsibilities placed upon it by the UN as an occupying force - they'll simply stop caring and leave them to it. However, what this means is much harder to figure out: It certainly doesn't suggest an end to the blockade by sea and air or the closure of Gaza's borders by the Israelis - if anything it simply suggests that they'll lock everything off, turn out the lights and leave - it's hard to see how that wouldn't be an humanitarian disaster, an unsurvivable locked box. I can understand Israel not wanting to provide for Gaza, but surely if that's their intention they would have to open Gaza up to the rest of the world in order to allow it a chance to provide for itself or at least to accept aid and trade with other nations? I can't see that happening so I'm at a bit of a loss as to what exactly the intention is. Egypt could in theory take over again, but when they were in control of Gaza they had masses of issues with the same extreme terrorism we see today from Hamas. Egypt ended up having to block their side of the border to stop some very bad people leaking into their territories to hide from whoever they’d bombed. The frank situation here is that none of the Arabian/Muslim states care enough about Palestine to help beyond condemning Israel. Opening your borders to Palestine means opening your borders to Iranian militias who seek to destabilise everyone in the region. It appears that Palestine’s connection to Iran is placing Palestine alone in dealing with anything that isn’t lobbing Iranian made ordinance at Israel. Palestine is sadly facing a cold shoulder from pretty much anyone that could help. Edited October 20, 2023 by magnkarl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 5 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: I heard that and i just watched the channel 4 news coverage of that hospital bombing its not very serious lets be honest. Who was behind the Gaza hospital blast – visual investigation - YouTube maybe there is another video that im missing. You say its very likely taped conversation between the two members of Hamas if fraudulent. Are you basing what channel 4 said? Their argument was and i quote: Hamas calls it obvious fabrication two independent Arab journalists told us the same thing because of language accent syntax dialect and tone. Non of it they say credible. Doesn't sound very serious. Channel 4 news are serious journalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Jareth said: Channel 4 news are serious journalists. Well the "investigation "is not very serious. I mean they basically saying look at that rocket trajectory it cant land there. like come on. Edited October 20, 2023 by Tumblerseven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 21 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: This story leaves a fair few questions: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67175094 It suggests that following the ground war, Israel will not return to accepting responsibility for providing electricity/water etc to Gaza in line with the responsibilities placed upon it by the UN as an occupying force - they'll simply stop caring and leave them to it. However, what this means is much harder to figure out: It certainly doesn't suggest an end to the blockade by sea and air or the closure of Gaza's borders by the Israelis - if anything it simply suggests that they'll lock everything off, turn out the lights and leave - it's hard to see how that wouldn't be an humanitarian disaster, an unsurvivable locked box. I can understand Israel not wanting to provide for Gaza, but surely if that's their intention they would have to open Gaza up to the rest of the world in order to allow it a chance to provide for itself or at least to accept aid and trade with other nations? I can't see that happening so I'm at a bit of a loss as to what exactly the intention is. Honestly I think part of the problem is that Israel itself doesn’t know what their intentions are with Gaza after the war. They’ve said quite a lot of contradictory things now. To a lesser extent, they haven’t for a long time - they’ve just been settling the land and sabotaging the two-state solution while they can get away with it and kinda hoping the Palestinian problem goes away. But no other country is going to take the Palestinians, and a one state solution risks seeing Israelis become a minority in their own country - and the only other option is just to kill every man, woman and child in Palestine (way too far even for Israel). Everything Israel does seems so maddeningly short-sighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 20, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 20, 2023 1 minute ago, Panto_Villan said: Honestly I think part of the problem is that Israel itself doesn’t know what their intentions are with Gaza after the war. They’ve said quite a lot of contradictory things now. Indeed. It's really hard to see an outcome other than the really awful one where everyone in Gaza is either dispersed or dies. Maintaining the blockade and turning off the electricity and water would be the equivalent of locking a trailer full of people and walking away, it'd be turning Gaza into a tomb, I can't see that - but there's no way I can see Israel allowing access to and from Gaza to anyone else. I guess the most likely thing is that a lot of people die, then we return to the way we were in September - but there does seem to be a real will from Israel not to let that happen. Hard to see a way forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 Oh i think i found the channel 4 more serious video with the investigation probably OutByEaster? saw this. Worth a watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 Reference the hospital bombing: Hamas immediately claimed it was hit and substantially destroyed by an Israeli airstrike, with hundreds of civilian bodies being pulled from the rubble. It rapidly became clear that the hospital hadn’t been struck by a JDAM, or indeed by anything at all. There were no destroyed buildings, no rubble, no hundreds of bodies. There was a misfiring Palestinian rocket that hit a car park, started a fire, and broke some windows. From start to finish Hamas’ claims were entirely false and have been shown up as such. The latest country to support that conclusion is France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 20, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 20, 2023 The French also seem to think Karim Benzema is an agent of the Muslim brotherhood and there's plenty out there to suggest the Israeli version of events lacks accuracy. Certainly the Israeli's wheeling out a whole bunch of hastily assembled evidence within an hour seemed a little bit convenient. I thought this was an interesting thread: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAnty Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Awol said: Reference the hospital bombing: Hamas immediately claimed it was hit and substantially destroyed by an Israeli airstrike, with hundreds of civilian bodies being pulled from the rubble. It rapidly became clear that the hospital hadn’t been struck by a JDAM, or indeed by anything at all. There were no destroyed buildings, no rubble, no hundreds of bodies. There was a misfiring Palestinian rocket that hit a car park, started a fire, and broke some windows. From start to finish Hamas’ claims were entirely false and have been shown up as such. The latest country to support that conclusion is France. Didn’t the same french intelligence think Russia wouldn’t invade Ukraine Edited October 20, 2023 by HeyAnty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 14 minutes ago, HeyAnty said: Didn’t the same french intelligence think Russia wouldn’t invade Ukraine Yes, and the Chief was rightly sacked within days. Then again, correctly predicting what an opponent will do is very different from analyzing what an opponent has done. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 17 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: The French also seem to think Karim Benzema is an agent of the Muslim brotherhood and there's plenty out there to suggest the Israeli version of events lacks accuracy. Certainly the Israeli's wheeling out a whole bunch of hastily assembled evidence within an hour seemed a little bit convenient. I thought this was an interesting thread: How deadly was this explosion that everyone is talking about. I'm hearing hundreds died but have not seen any evidence(aftermath) of this only a few burned out cars in a car park and an argument over who's missile it was. Have I missed something? I genuinely haven't trolled the net looking for stuff but I'm not sure I've seen anything posted in the thread either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 20, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 20, 2023 There was some dispute over the numbers killed I think - I'm sure I saw someone somewhere claiming it was nearer dozens than hundreds but I haven't seen anything like that since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 20, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 20, 2023 1 minute ago, OutByEaster? said: There was some dispute over the numbers killed I think - I'm sure I saw someone somewhere claiming it was nearer dozens than hundreds but I haven't seen anything like that since. Well that is substantially different to over a thousand which was the figure being quoted shortly after the explosion and that figure clearly came from the Palestinian side (and that journalists weren’t allowed anywhere near the site yet.) It was being stated as fact by many news outlets even though they’d been nowhere near the site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 Anybody think the mass murder of civilians or the mass punishment of civilians will lead to any war crimes prosecutions? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 20, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 20, 2023 2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Anybody think the mass murder of civilians or the mass punishment of civilians will lead to any war crimes prosecutions? Nope, not in this war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 Nah, me neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 20, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 20, 2023 10 minutes ago, bickster said: Well that is substantially different to over a thousand which was the figure being quoted shortly after the explosion and that figure clearly came from the Palestinian side (and that journalists weren’t allowed anywhere near the site yet.) It was being stated as fact by many news outlets even though they’d been nowhere near the site Yep - it's a strange one - the source I saw (I think on Twitter) on the smaller number didn't seem anything that would make sense so I didn't really pay it much mind - but the figures did seem to be established quite quickly. Incidentally, the WHO have said that they count 59 separate attacks on healthcare services in Gaza by Israel since October 7th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 20, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 20, 2023 10 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Anybody think the mass murder of civilians or the mass punishment of civilians will lead to any war crimes prosecutions? Maybe for "the other team". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted October 20, 2023 Share Posted October 20, 2023 24 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Anybody think the mass murder of civilians or the mass punishment of civilians will lead to any war crimes prosecutions? Maybe of Hamas leaders, but no chance in Hell that an Israeli would be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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