fruitvilla Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 4 minutes ago, Thug said: On a serious level, what was your point?! Other than say no one has rights? Arguing for one side or the other in terms of people's rights won't get us anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 1 hour ago, one_ian_taylor said: They sound more casual than you might expect, but what makes you think the accents are weird? My Arabic isn't the best, but I like to think I'm at least good at picking up accents, and Mr. Operative #2 had an accent unlike any Palestinian accent I ever heard. I showed it to my Jordanian Palestinian friend and he laughed at the absurdity of the recording (down to the how each guy in the recording is on a different stereo channel ). Can't tell if it's AI or just crappy acting. It sounds like one of those listening exercises in an Arabic course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 24 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: If, hypothetically, I came along with a bunch of mates and bulldozed your house and left you homeless with no possessions, and got military protection to build my own house and take over your olive oil business would you consider that a social construct? You are confounding what I want with what is reality. I would use every lever I had to protect what I think of as mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 9 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: The black man in London might be a bad example there. Do you think white people in America have a right to remain there? Do you think Anglo-Saxons have a right to live and remain in the UK? The point being made (so far as I can see) is that you don’t need to be there first to have a claim to the land. At a certain point you have to accept that the new occupiers have been on the land long enough that they too have rights to it, even if they originally took the lands by force. Thats obviously not the case for the Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank territories, but it is true for Israel proper. Do you disagree with any of that? It’s sometimes hard to track what you’re arguing for given the numbers of posts you’re making. The white people living in America should of course be allowed to live there. The anglo Saxons living here should be allowed to live there. The jewish people in Israel (proper) should be allowed to live there ( I have never suggested otherwise), and allowed to live there in peace, without fear of rockets or attacks. Now ask @fruitvilla and @magnkarl what they think. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 3 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: You are confounding what I want with what is reality. I would use every lever I had to protect what I think of as mine. Be careful, because right now that makes you a terrorist not an existentialist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Be careful, because right now that makes you a terrorist not an existentialist. Probably true, but then it has been said truth is the first casualty of war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 55 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: OK 'rights' are a social construct and meaningless beyond the social construct. Without getting into discussion deeper, I'd advise reading into "natural law" and how it's been one of the fundaments of western law making. I'm not gonna defend the idea of "natural law" but it's worth considering when carelessly throwing ideas such as "social construct" into centuries of law making. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 5 minutes ago, Thug said: The jewish people in Israel (proper) should be allowed to live there ( I have never suggested otherwise), and allowed to live there in peace, without fear of rockets or attacks. I don't think @magnkarl or I have said otherwise. I want Palestinians to be able to live peaceably in the Levant too. I think the displacement of people by Israelis is a political mistake. Counterproductive to a peaceful settlement. Hamas going on a rampage was incredibly stupid. Not beneficial at least not in the immediate term to the Palestinians in the Gaza strip. Firing rockets at Israel (and apparently occasionally missing) is incredibly stupid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 12 minutes ago, Thug said: The white people living in America should of course be allowed to live there. The anglo Saxons living here should be allowed to live there. The jewish people in Israel (proper) should be allowed to live there ( I have never suggested otherwise), and allowed to live there in peace, without fear of rockets or attacks. Now ask @fruitvilla and @magnkarl what they think. Sure, do @fruitvilla or @magnkarl disagree with anything I wrote in the previous post? Because I kinda get the impression that nobody actually believes the Israeli settlers have a right to be claiming land in the occupied West Bank, and everyone is just talking past each other on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 57 minutes ago, Thug said: You’ve joined the conversation mid-point and don’t understand that my response was to another poster claiming the Jewish people of Europe were the indigenous population and suggesting that their claim to the land was real. My post was proving that there were people there before them. If you bother to read the whole conversation, you will understand that it is me that you are agreeing with. The black man living in London has every right to be there. If some bat-ass crazy pulled him out of his home and moved some white family in because ‘their ancestors from 4000 years ago lived there’ you’d think WTAF. No? I think the European point you made is still wrong, though. I agree with you on the point re settlers and the forcing Palestinians out of their homes, but let’s not pretend the Israelis (even the settlers) are European colonisers, it’s more complex than that. They were an unwanted and subjugated people in Europe with origins in the region they have returned to, and some of them are of more recent local heritage anyway. I do agree that a lot of what they have done has been an abuse of the rights of the people who had been living there for generations, not defending the illegal expansion of Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trekka Posted October 18, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 18, 2023 The UK Foreign Office has advised against all travel to Lebanon. UK citizens currently in the country are being urged to leave while commercial flights are available. Sky News Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 37 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: Arguing for one side or the other in terms of people's rights won't get us anywhere. I didn’t do this. I made a point that the Zionist god-given claim to the land was absurd. International law has already made it clear that the settler movement is illegal. Israel continue with impunity. Netanyahu has clearly stated that he is not done until the whole of Palestine is taken by Israel. Britain's response - rather than to uphold the law, they change the definition of anti-semitism to include criticism of Israel foreign policy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 8 minutes ago, KentVillan said: I think the European point you made is still wrong, though. I agree with you on the point re settlers and the forcing Palestinians out of their homes, but let’s not pretend the Israelis (even the settlers) are European colonisers, it’s more complex than that. They were an unwanted and subjugated people in Europe with origins in the region they have returned to, and some of them are of more recent local heritage anyway. I do agree that a lot of what they have done has been an abuse of the rights of the people who had been living there for generations, not defending the illegal expansion of Israel. Which point? That the European Jews of many centuries, don’t have a right to go to the West Bank and evict a Palestinian of many centuries and take their home? Im wrong there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 44 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: The black man in London might be a bad example there I agree not a good example. People essentially invited into the country ... why would they not be afforded citizen benefits? 46 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: Thats obviously not the case for the Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank territories, but it is true for Israel proper. I think Israeli settlers in the West Bank is a political mistake to deal with with a short-term problem in Israel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 4 minutes ago, Thug said: I didn’t do this Perhaps not explicitly. And yet two lines later you point to international law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 1 minute ago, fruitvilla said: I agree not a good example. People essentially invited into the country ... why would they not be afforded citizen benefits? I think Israeli settlers in the West Bank is a political mistake to deal with with a short-term problem in Israel. What? ‘A political mistake’? Whats the short term problem in Israel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 Just now, Thug said: Whats the short term problem in Israel? The religious right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Thug said: What? ‘A political mistake’? Whats the short term problem in Israel? That’s exactly what it is - the current Israeli government is propped up by the settler movement and the ultra-orthodox Jews. Netanyahu is basically giving the nationalists a free reign so he can stay in power and not be investigated for fraud. In 2005 (a few years pre-Netanyahu) the Israelis pulled out of Gaza and forcibly brought their own settlers with them, and hopefully the same will be possible in the West Bank under a new leader. Edited October 18, 2023 by Panto_Villan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 36 minutes ago, Thug said: The white people living in America should of course be allowed to live there. The anglo Saxons living here should be allowed to live there. The jewish people in Israel (proper) should be allowed to live there ( I have never suggested otherwise), and allowed to live there in peace, without fear of rockets or attacks. Now ask @fruitvilla and @magnkarl what they think. I’m afraid you’ve lost me, what is it I’m supposed to be answering? I’m perfectly happy in my veg garden in murky ol’ England, and no amount of pressure from anywhere will likely get me to go to Israel/Palestine. As far as I gather my family originated from somewhere in the Caucasus and followed the Dniepr up to Poland where Nazi Germany happened, whereby my family fled to England aided by a very special man in the foreign service. The only thing that irks me with this situation apart from the horrible losses of life on both sides is how it affects my circles in my native country due to both sides being mental and gearing up their own support networks to beyond Russian propaganda. I’ve probably got as much connection to Israel as a Christian has to Christ, or my next door neighbour who happens to be Shiite has to the ayatollah of Iran. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 10 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: The religious right. You’ve lost me again. what religious right is a short term problem? And please l, no cryptic answers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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