The Roads Today ICE warning

[hippo]

Just a warning if youre out and about. The roads are like glass this morning. It rained overnight and this has washed the grit away. In my area Clapgate Lane (Bartley Green) - and the roads approaching Harborne we very slippy (worst its been all week) - These are main roads as well not side roads.

I also heard a report of a parked car sliding down the road in harborne.

If the gritting lorries don't get out today - we have recipe for carnage on the roads at about 4 - 5pm.

So if anyone knows if the gritters get out - or wants to warn of icy roads post em here....

 

[hippo]

Update - apparently the council did NOT grit birmingham roads last night - due to the forecast of rain. They are out gritting now though.

A sorry state of affairs when the council has to make cost cutting decisions like that. 

Edited December 15, 2017 by hippo

[Demitri_C]

the council did not grit our roads in north London enfield area. why do we bother paying council tax? they dont gritt the roads, they dont answer the phones, the bin men come less frequently so what they hell do these idiots ACTUALLY DO?

[a m ole]

20 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

the council did not grit our roads in north London enfield area. why do we bother paying council tax? they dont gritt the roads, they dont answer the phones, the bin men come less frequently so what they hell do these idiots ACTUALLY DO?

busy being underfunded by a government ensuring the rich get richer.

[Demitri_C]

11 minutes ago, a m ole said:

busy being underfunded by a government ensuring the rich get richer.

Not for me 

Edited December 15, 2017 by Demitri_C

[mjmooney]

40 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Not for me 

You're in London. They have no idea what snow is, so what can you expect? 

[Demitri_C]

33 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

You're in London. They have no idea what snow is, so what can you expect? 

Oh i dunno..maybe watch the weather forecast and gritt the roads? Be prepared?

[limpid]

12 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Oh i dunno..maybe watch the weather forecast and gritt the roads? Be prepared?

Out of interest, what do you think "grit" does when spread on roads? Hint: rock salt washes away with rain and has no effect whatsoever below -5C. It's not magic snow / ice repellent.

Perhaps we shouldn't expect underfunded councils to fix our own lack of preparation?

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, limpid said:

Out of interest, what do you think "grit" does when spread on roads? Hint: rock salt washes away with rain and has no effect whatsoever below -5C. It's not magic snow / ice repellent.

Perhaps we shouldn't expect underfunded councils to fix our own lack of preparation?

Prevent slips and falls, just like what was done at the local hospital?

but yeah let's not critise the council for their poor work in the local areas 

[limpid]

20 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Prevent slips and falls, just like what was done at the local hospital? 

So you do think it's magic?

I've no idea what they did at your local hospital. At my local hospital the car park was still effectively an ice rink on Wednesday. The walkways were clear as they had been cleared. Grit had nothing to do with it.

25 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

but yeah let's not critise the council for their poor work in the local areas 

If you have a council which claims that it will clear show and ice from all local areas then feel free to criticise them. I bet they don't and I bet they don't charge you on the basis that they will.

[Genie]

2 hours ago, limpid said:

...and has no effect whatsoever below -5C. 

Whilst temperatures do sometimes dip below -5C they are generally higher than that and in the working range. 

[Stevo985]

8 hours ago, hippo said:

Update - apparently the council did NOT grit birmingham roads last night - due to the forecast of rain. They are out gritting now though.

A sorry state of affairs when the council has to make cost cutting decisions like that. 

Is it not a case of it would have been pointless to grit the road because the rain was going to wash the grit away (like you said in your opening post) so they went out and gritted this morning when it would actually have an effect?

I imagine it wasn't to do with cost.

[bickster]

8 hours ago, limpid said:

Out of interest, what do you think "grit" does when spread on roads? Hint: rock salt washes away with rain and has no effect whatsoever below -5C. It's not magic snow / ice repellent.

Perhaps we shouldn't expect underfunded councils to fix our own lack of preparation?

This, This, This, This. Ranted about this the other day. Its not effing Grit, its Halite or Rock Salt.

[bickster]

6 hours ago, Genie said:

Whilst temperatures do sometimes dip below -5C they are generally higher than that and in the working range. 

You clearly aren't out really early in the morning, I've seen -6 this week around 5am, (and we haven't even had a significant snowfall) there are also other factors that come into play, temperatures at road level are often lower than the ambient temperature (that's what the forecast gives you) due to many factors, so say the ambient temperature is -3, the road temperature could be -6

I remember a few years ago, I went to see Villa at Anfield midweek, the temperature during the match reached as low as -17, the local papers at the time were full of people complaining that the council didn't "grit". There was literally no point, it would have had zero effect apart from paying the bin wagon drivers overtime to spread salt, and depleting the salt reserves in the depo. Eventually, the council caved in and sent the wagons out as a PR exercise, nothing melted but the idiots were happy

 

[Jon]

14 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

the council did not grit our roads in north London enfield area. why do we bother paying council tax? they dont gritt the roads, they dont answer the phones, the bin men come less frequently so what they hell do these idiots ACTUALLY DO?

Don't worry Dem. It's that crappy European grit that's to blame.  Once we're out of the EU we can start using some of that superior British grit like we used to in the 1950s 

[blandy]

11 hours ago, limpid said:

...If you have a council which claims that it will clear show and ice from all local areas then feel free to criticise them. I bet they don't and I bet they don't charge you on the basis that they will.

They all do and they all should - They have a legal duty to make the highways safe from danger from ice and snow, as far as is reasonably practicable do so.

edit - here (more on link than quoted extract)

Quote

Who is responsible for gritting roads?
Highways authorities (county, unitary, metropolitan and London borough councils) are responsible for nine out of every 10 miles of road – about 225,000 miles throughout the UK. England and Wales has 174 highways authorities and they grit on average 41 per cent of their roads.

The Highways Agency covers motorways and major A roads, while Transport for London covers arterial trunk roads in London.

What are the legal duties on clearing snow and ice from roads?
Under the Highways Act 1980 (England and Wales):

Section 41(1A) – "a highway authority is under a duty to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that safe passage along a highway is not endangered by snow or ice."

Section 150 puts a responsibility on the highway authority to clear snow from the highway, but only if it is causing an obstruction.

A House of Lords ruling (Goodes v East Sussex County Council – 2000) concluded that a highway authority had an absolute duty to keep the fabric of the highway in a good state of repair so as to render it safe for ordinary traffic at all seasons of the year, but that did not include a duty to remove the formation or accumulation of ice and snow on the road.

The Traffic Management Act 2004 (England) requires authorities to do all that is reasonably practicable to manage the network effectively to keep traffic moving. In meeting the duty, authorities should establish contingency plans for dealing promptly and effectively with unplanned events, such as unforeseen weather conditions, as far as is reasonably practicable.

UK Roads Liaison Group – 'Well-maintained Highways: Code of Practice for Highways Maintenance and Management (2009)'

Given the scale of financial and other resources involved in delivering the Winter Service it is not reasonable either to – provide the service on all parts of the network; ensure running surfaces are kept free of ice or snow at all times, even on the treated parts of the network. 

Why don't councils grit all roads?
Councils in the UK are responsible for about 225,000 miles of road. It would cost hundreds of millions of extra pounds to grit all roads. Also, many roads are simply too narrow or too steep for gritting lorry to navigate. Instead, councils try to find other solutions like supplying local grit bins for residents, liaising with parish councils and community groups to grit more residential or remote areas and working with farmers to clear rural areas.

Are councils responsible for gritting pavements?
Technically, most pavements are considered highways and so fall under he remit of councils. Decision on which surfaces to treat are based on factors such as how frequently and by how many people they are used, if there are alternative routes that could be used by pedestrians and whether there is a more practical way of clearing them such as community schemes.

 

[Demitri_C]

14 hours ago, limpid said:

So you do think it's magic?

I've no idea what they did at your local hospital. At my local hospital the car park was still effectively an ice rink on Wednesday. The walkways were clear as they had been cleared. Grit had nothing to do with it.

If you have a council which claims that it will clear show and ice from all local areas then feel free to criticise them. I bet they don't and I bet they don't charge you on the basis that they will.

Well mine salt was put down Andy there were 2 slips in comparison to another hospital that didn't put any down near me where there was over 20. Might not be "magic" but it certainly helps.

our local council are the worst, they say they will do things and rarely do. Instead they waste money on crap like deadly circle lanes not designed properly.

council tax? Might as well set my money on fire 

[Jon]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

 deadly circle lanes 

I bet that put you in a right spin

[Genie]

9 hours ago, bickster said:

You clearly aren't out really early in the morning, I've seen -6 this week around 5am, (and we haven't even had a significant snowfall) there are also other factors that come into play, temperatures at road level are often lower than the ambient temperature (that's what the forecast gives you) due to many factors, so say the ambient temperature is -3, the road temperature could be -6

I remember a few years ago, I went to see Villa at Anfield midweek, the temperature during the match reached as low as -17, the local papers at the time were full of people complaining that the council didn't "grit". There was literally no point, it would have had zero effect apart from paying the bin wagon drivers overtime to spread salt, and depleting the salt reserves in the depo. Eventually, the council caved in and sent the wagons out as a PR exercise, nothing melted but the idiots were happy

 

I am out before 6 every week day for work.

My point was there is often this argument “there’s no point in gritting tonight as it’s going to touch -6 and the grit doesn’t work below -5”... if it was below -5 for the entire night then fair enough but that is almost never the case. The grit can do lots of good before and after the spell below -5.