Steve Bruce

[terrytini]

Couldn't agree more Jonah.

They are all proven players.

In any other Club people would - rightly - be saying they are poorly managed.

Here we have some who think that's too simple a reason !!

[markavfc40]

1 hour ago, striker said:

 

The point of my previous post was that the step down in quality from the Premiership to the Championship should have compensated somewhat for the changes when you consider that most of the players brought in by Bruce were already accustomed to Championship football.

 

I don't think many would argue that we have a very good squad of players for this division and that on paper you would expect results to have been much better. That is a very simplistic way of looking at things though and it doesn't take into account that you still have to build partnerships on the pitch and build up understandings be it Chester and Baker/Elphick at centre back, Hogan and Kodjia up top, Lansbury, Hourianne and Jedinak in the middle, Bree/Hutton and Adomah down the right etc etc. It takes time for a team to evolve and if it was just a case of throwing 11 good players together you wouldn't need to employ a manager and coaches.

I'd imagine our best 11 at the moment would look something like Johnstone, Bree, Chester, Baker, Taylor, Jedinak, Lansbury, Hourihane, Adomah, Hogan, Kodjia. All bar one of them players has been here for 8 months or under.  Five of them here since last month. It simply isn't realistic to think it will come together overnight or even in a matter of weeks.

We have to take advantage of the fact that we now have 2 months of this season remaining and aren't in any danger of relegation for me and no chance of the play offs. We have to use this time to bed in a formation and barring injuries/suspensions decide on a best 11 and pretty much stick with it. Then over the summer make minimal changes and look to hit the ground running come August. That is what I expect us to now be focused on.

Edited February 26, 2017 by markavfc40

[terrytini]

I've run out of energy on the subject but aside from many other previously stated reasons why I don't buy the 'gel' idea yesterday we had Hutton, Baker, Amavi, Gardner, Bacuna, Green on the pitch all of whom have been here since at least last season, and Chester , Kodja, and Adomah who've been here since the season started.

Not exactly strangers to each other, but still played like they'd never met.

[terrytini]

Anyway I'm done on the subject I'm afraid he's worn me out !

Ill revisit in a month when he'll either be gone or we will be at least safe from the drop.

[DCJonah]

7 minutes ago, TRO said:

I agree with the point that too much change in team personnel does not fit with stability.

However, I'm not saying its right, but just offering a thought on mitigation.

Maybe he is searching amongst so much fickle form, injury, suspension, Afcon and new recruits that team shuffling has been forced on him.

Is it any wonder, he don't know his best team.....I watch them every match......I don't.....perhaps watching them in training and turning up for work, hinders rather than helps him?

I am all for TRYING to keep a settled side and I think in the fullness of time that will develop.

 

Yes it is a wonder why he doesn't know his best team or at the very least have a plan as to how he wants us to play. Look at the joke of trying 3-5-2 for 2 games. 

He had 2 and a half months before January, he then had pretty much the month of Jan before his players were signed. 

And yet absolutely no clear idea of how he wanted them to play or how these new guys would fit into the team. 

[DCJonah]

7 minutes ago, terrytini said:

Couldn't agree more Jonah.

They are all proven players.

In any other Club people would - rightly - be saying they are poorly managed.

Here we have some who think that's too simple a reason !!

Exactly. 

We're signing some of the best players at this level. 

If a premier league team sign the best premier league players I doubt they go on and lose games at a laughable rate. 

 

[Guest av1]

Regarding the players, i think it worth remembering how much this lot cost. Both in terms of fees (kodjia, Hogan, Chester, Adomah) and in terms of salaries to entice those entering the end of their contracts (Bree, Hurihane, Lansbury etc, all of whom are reputedly on PL contracts)

Its not hyperbole to suggest we are the Man City of this division. This division has never seen such spending, and the vast majority of teams that compete it will find it impossible to comprehend. 

And yet I've seen us outplayed by the likes of Burton Albion. Now people will say that this still isn't Bruce's team (certainly before January), but given our spending should Burton be playing us off the park? 

The idea that a manager should get a prolonged period of grace until he has built his own squad is silly imo. Has the boy at Watford had to build his own squad? How about Clement at Swansea? Warnock at Cardiff. Conte is winning the PL at a canter and only brought in a couple of players. And none of those guys (Conte aside) have had a budget anywhere near as big as ours, comparable to their competition. 

This club has been a shower of shit for 5/6 now so i certainly didn't underestimate the size of the task at hand. But also don't think that should excuse how the most expensively assembled squad this division has probably ever seen, gets played off the park week in week out. 

For the all shit that may be going on behind closed doors, it isn't acceptable, and that is the sole responsibility of the manager. 

 

[TRO]

23 hours ago, DCJonah said:

But these players should be good championship players. So whose fault do you think it is that they look like poor ones?

They play different formations, different positions, different partnerships. No clear plan on the style or how the team will play. 

Worries me about how much worse these players will continue to look under Bruce. 

I will say it again......Where you are so certain he is DIRECTLY responsible for what you see ....I am not.

(Just in a similar way that Ranieri has been let down by players, who are more interested in themselves)

I am not exonerating Steve Bruce, just offering mitigation.....Maybe we all thought that he could change 7 years of poo overnight and I think his earlier run actually has worked against him in raising that expectation.

but let me tell you this FWIW

I was listening to a bunch of guys behind me at the game ( never met them before)and the discussion was similar to what we are having .....I turned around to join in.

I offered to talk them through incidents whilst they were happening during the game ......I pointed out about 5 or 6 things, trying not to spoil their visual experience in the process

and asked them........Do you think the manager is DIRECTLY responsible for that kind of poor play.

after a few mumbles the unanimous decision came back ......No Thats not him.....One guy pointed out... at the points you were making SB's head was squirming...so he was seeing the same thing as me

I was then joined, by a Derby Fan, in front of me,who said the same......We are shit too, but you can't keep blaming managers for some of the stuff we are pointing to.....its individual incompetence.

This is not a Manager " get of jail free" plea......Its a plea to apportion the blame in the right place.

Steve Bruce may prove not to be the man for us.........7 years of absolute woeful football, to negate that in 4-5 months, I think is a bit much, thats all I'm saying.

He knows everything that is wrong just like us.....I am convinced he is trying to change it.

Knowing it and doing it ......is worlds apart.

 

PS I could point out all the errors of Saturdays game have them verified by a team of pundits.....go down to BMH on Mondays morning and put it to the players.....play the incidents back.....do you think that would fix it never in a million  years......They wouldn't listen to me ,even if I was right.......Thats the task Steve Bruce has, getting them to do it.

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by TRO

[TRO]

32 minutes ago, terrytini said:

Couldn't agree more Jonah.

They are all proven players.

In any other Club people would - rightly - be saying they are poorly managed.

Here we have some who think that's too simple a reason !!

after 4 months and one window?

Terry,  Management is not a finger clicking exercise.

Furthermore management is a collective word for a compendium of actions, rules, training,plans, agreements, processes, guidance etc, etc, etc.

I ( respectfully) say your stab at it ( poorly managed) is too simplistic.

May I say Terry, what you want is what we all want......Attractive winning football.....and so you should.

I suspect ....If you went To BMH with say Steve Round....He would probably take you round and show you behind the scenes, what the manager is doing to fulfill that dream.

You may have a different view then........But Remember, even IF i am right he is doing all the right things that may take time to transform itself on to the matchday pitch.

In the meantime......stop being a " Doubting Thomas"

Edited February 26, 2017 by TRO

[TRO]

20 minutes ago, av1 said:

Regarding the players, i think it worth remembering how much this lot cost. Both in terms of fees (kodjia, Hogan, Chester, Adomah) and in terms of salaries to entice those entering the end of their contracts (Bree, Hurihane, Lansbury etc, all of whom are reputedly on PL contracts)

Its not hyperbole to suggest we are the Man City of this division. This division has never seen such spending, and the vast majority of teams that compete it will find it impossible to comprehend. 

And yet I've seen us outplayed by the likes of Burton Albion. Now people will say that this still isn't Bruce's team (certainly before January), but given our spending should Burton be playing us off the park? 

The idea that a manager should get a prolonged period of grace until he has built his own squad is silly imo. Has the boy at Watford had to build his own squad? How about Clement at Swansea? Warnock at Cardiff. Conte is winning the PL at a canter and only brought in a couple of players. And none of those guys (Conte aside) have had a budget anywhere near as big as ours, comparable to their competition. 

This club has been a shower of shit for 5/6 now so i certainly didn't underestimate the size of the task at hand. But also don't think that should excuse how the most expensively assembled squad this division has probably ever seen, gets played off the park week in week out. 

For the all shit that may be going on behind closed doors, it isn't acceptable, and that is the sole responsibility of the manager. 

 

I find most of that hard to disagree with.....I will agree something, is not right.

I ask myself a few questions.....

• how many managers and coaches have we had, how many indeed players have we had.?????????????
• Mourinho was comparatively failing at Chelsea went to Man U rescued his reputation.....Conte comes in back to winning ways???????????
• Ranieri, wins the league with a team totally together, built on a shoestring......200 odd days later ousted..???????????????

I wish I knew the answer......but to keep blaming managers alone, I think is a very disparaging path to take.....We don't know the atmosphere they have to work in or in fact the conditions.

......but I guess based on the little knowledge we have of their respective working conditions and the fact it is widely accepted.....poor results  = poor manager......is it any wonder football is where it is......close to the gutter.

[kurtsimonw]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

That was a very poor performance yesterday......and a very worrying one too.

 

On the ball, I agree. Off the ball we were very, very solid. Could still be playing now and Derby wouldn't have scored.

[Guest av1]

11 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said:

On the ball, I agree. Off the ball we were very, very solid. Could still be playing now and Derby wouldn't have scored.

They should have had a penalty to be fair mate. 

[kurtsimonw]

1 minute ago, av1 said:

They should have had a penalty to be fair mate. 

Maybe. But they never looked like scoring.

Haven't seen highlights so can't comment.

Edited February 26, 2017 by kurtsimonw

[Guest av1]

2 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said:

As should we. The fact Adomah didn't go down doesn't make it any less of a pen.

I didn't see the Adomah incident clearly from where i was sat in the Holte, so I'll take your word for that. But that wasn't what i commented on. You said Derby could still be playing and wouldn't have scored. If not for a incompetent referee, they could well have scored yesterday.

But thats neither here nor there, i guess I'm just disagreeing that we looked very solid. They played us off the park. 

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, av1 said:

I didn't see the Adomah incident clearly from where i was sat in the Holte, so I'll take your word for that. But that wasn't what i commented on. You said Derby could still be playing and wouldn't have scored. If not for a incompetent referee, they could well have scored yesterday.

But thats neither here nor there, i guess I'm just disagreeing that we looked very solid. They played us off the park. 

a Derby fan sat in front of me......He reckoned THEY were shit of late.

[Eastie]

12 minutes ago, av1 said:

I didn't see the Adomah incident clearly from where i was sat in the Holte, so I'll take your word for that. But that wasn't what i commented on. You said Derby could still be playing and wouldn't have scored. If not for a incompetent referee, they could well have scored yesterday.

But thats neither here nor there, i guess I'm just disagreeing that we looked very solid. They played us off the park. 

We played them off the park 2nd half at pride park and played the leaders Brighton off the park too - ultimately it means nothing - the thing that counts is the result and I'd take an ugly 1-0 all day long .

Edited February 26, 2017 by Eastie

[Guest av1]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

a Derby fan sat in front of me......He reckoned THEY were shit of late.

And thats another worrying aspect of our play. Forest were another team in terrible form before they played us. 

We aren't just being outplayed by the odd team, we are being outplayed by average teams that are in poor form themselves.  

[Eastie]

2 minutes ago, av1 said:

And thats another worrying aspect of our play. Forest were another team in terrible form before they played us. 

We aren't just being outplayed by the odd team, we are being outplayed by average teams that are in poor form themselves.  

Certainly wouldn't say forest , or Ipswich outplayed us in anyway whatsoever - both were incredibly lucky to win and villa were the better side by a distance.

its frustrating how many efforts we have had on goal recently that haven't gone in and then our opponents have a shot and score - very few teams have outplayed us this season .

Edited February 26, 2017 by Eastie

[Guest av1]

Just now, Eastie said:

We played tgem off the park 2nd half at pride park and played the leaders Brighton off the park too - ultimately it means nothing - the thing that counts is the result and I'd take an ugly 1-0 all day long .

Normally i woud agree, some weeks you will play better than others, thats sport. 

But the undeniable fact is that we have been crap in almost every game since Bruce came in. 

[Stevo985]

I'm surprised at the criticism of the subs.

Did anyone watch the game? All 3 of Adomah, Green and Kodjia didn't have great games. Adomah also looked knackered so it made sense to bring off the wide players for the best attacking wide options we had on the bench.

Kodjia was left on because he was the only striker in the squad, but he was so **** in the last 10 minutes he had to come off so Bruce put someone else up front.

 

The criticism should be for not putting a striker on the bench, even if it was Davies, to give us another option. But given the matchday squad, the subs were fine.