Steve Bruce

[TheStagMan]

3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

No, I wouldn't say so.

I was happy with last season. I haven't enjoyed a season like last season since MON's days. I went to VP every week knowing we'd probably win. And we usually did. We scored loads of goals and it was often decent football, and I got a day out at Wembley from it.

Ultimately we failed, because we're still in the Championship. But I was happy with the season because it was fun.

 

Like I've said a few times, it's a shame some posters are so obsessed with disliking Bruce, or obsessed with the black and white of promotion = good and Championship = bad, that they couldn't let themselves enjoy what was the most enjoyable season we've had in close to a decade, and could be the most enjoyable season we have for a while to come (depending on how the new owners run the place)

I wasn't quoting you, I was quoting Bobzy where he had asked me to show him where he had said he was happy with the performances last season. 

 

But since you have responded........

1) I did enjoy wining games last season, there were some fun times, as well as there being some shit times, agreed it was nice to be competitive.

2) Despite the fun times and some enjoyable games, the set objective was not achieved. Yes, it has perversely done us a great deal of good (hopefully) in that we are now under the stewardship of very (demonstrably) wealthy and successful individuals, BUT that has been a fluke of good luck.

3) A dislike of Bruce does not stop me from enjoying wins (clarification: I do not dislike Bruce, I dislike the football he serves up). However he is a short term fix for a problem - get us promoted immediately. He has failed to do this, and in my opinion, our opportunity to use this methodology has passed. We need to build a sustainable future for the club, Bruce has never shown any ability to do that, so every day he is here is a day where we have not started our long-term rebuild.

4) It's all about targets I suppose, if your target is to enjoy football matches and wins, enjoy being competitive in this league, then yes, Bruce's tenure has been successful, if your target is to return to the prem, then he has not. The danger is, the longer we stay here, the further we will slip. Look at Leeds and Forest. Great, historic clubs like ours that are languishing in this division with little realistic chance of getting out.

[TheStagMan]

5 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Not sure where you’re getting anything about 2 seasons. From memory we finished 13th a couple of seasons back which clearly wasn’t challenging for automatic promotion.

And no - being happy with something doesn’t equate success. Promotion is success. Finishing 4th is a good campaign. It isn’t hard. 

Right, so basically you have said you are happy with failure. That's your prerogative and you are welcome to feel that way. I am not happy with failure and want to see us promoted. Until we are promoted, having a fun season (whilst I will enjoy it) is not enough.

[Stevo985]

2 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

I wasn't quoting you, I was quoting Bobzy where he had asked me to show him where he had said he was happy with the performances last season. 

No shit. I was just responding to the general point that you don't have to consider a season to be a success to be happy with it

4 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

 

1) I did enjoy wining games last season, there were some fun times, as well as there being some shit times, agreed it was nice to be competitive.

2) Despite the fun times and some enjoyable games, the set objective was not achieved. Yes, it has perversely done us a great deal of good (hopefully) in that we are now under the stewardship of very (demonstrably) wealthy and successful individuals, BUT that has been a fluke of good luck.

3) A dislike of Bruce does not stop me from enjoying wins (clarification: I do not dislike Bruce, I dislike the football he serves up). However he is a short term fix for a problem - get us promoted immediately. He has failed to do this, and in my opinion, our opportunity to use this methodology has passed. We need to build a sustainable future for the club, Bruce has never shown any ability to do that, so every day he is here is a day where we have not started our long-term rebuild.

4) It's all about targets I suppose, if your target is to enjoy football matches and wins, enjoy being competitive in this league, then yes, Bruce's tenure has been successful, if your target is to return to the prem, then he has not. The danger is, the longer we stay here, the further we will slip. Look at Leeds and Forest. Great, historic clubs like ours that are languishing in this division with little realistic chance of getting out.

1) Agreed

2) Agreed

3) It's clear that some people's opinions of Bruce hindered their enjoyment of last season. people won't admit it, but it's obvious.

4) Again, I wasn't talking about success. In fact I specifically said last season wasn't a success. I wasn't talking about Bruce delivering, I was talking about being happy. That you and others can't have a discussion about this without going back to "yeah but he failed" just hammers home my point. Black and White VT at its finest. We didn't go up therefore everything is terrible.

[Stevo985]

19 minutes ago, Dave J said:

I don't think this is the case Stevo - you know fine well that I don't rate Bruce, but my reasons for this are his failure to reach the play off in his first season - yes this was realistic ( January and  you know who put paid to this ) moving on

And last year he should have taken the club up - however this year I genuinely have no clue as to where we will end up 

k

[TheStagMan]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

No shit. I was just responding to the general point that you don't have to consider a season to be a success to be happy with it

1) Agreed

2) Agreed

3) It's clear that some people's opinions of Bruce hindered their enjoyment of last season. people won't admit it, but it's obvious.

4) Again, I wasn't talking about success. In fact I specifically said last season wasn't a success. I wasn't talking about Bruce delivering, I was talking about being happy. That you and others can't have a discussion about this without going back to "yeah but he failed" just hammers home my point. Black and White VT at its finest. We didn't go up therefore everything is terrible.

A few short weeks ago, everything WAS terrible. That was the concern that many of the "anti-Bruce" brigade feared and it so nearly came to be. The fact that now everything is OK (hopefully) does not get Bruce off the hook. 

I want to see something long term and sustainable built at Villa. Bruce really is not the man to do that - show me examples of where he has built something long term at a club? Please don't assume that I don't enjoy supporting my club because I don't agree with what the manager is doing. On match day I will support the club like everyone else, I will enjoy the wins like everyone else. 

[osmark86]

1 hour ago, Jareth said:

This bit's interesting, basically Bruce has accepted he can no longer be, Bruce.

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11677/11460402/steve-bruce-says-it-is-time-for-aston-villa-to-rebuild

this should be good news for people who have criticized him on this. I hope that these leads to him utilizing more of our youngsters which I believe he will after that statement. 

[sheepyvillian]

25 minutes ago, Dave J said:

I don't think this is the case Stevo - you know fine well that I don't rate Bruce, but my reasons for this are his failure to reach the play off in his first season - yes this was realistic ( January and  you know who put paid to this ) moving on

And last year he should have taken the club up - however this year I genuinely have no clue as to where we will end up 

Maybe, " end up " is a sub - conscious hope .

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, osmark86 said:

this should be good news for people who have criticized him on this. I hope that these leads to him utilizing more of our youngsters which I believe he will after that statement. 

Yeah it looks like an order from up high, and must be something bruce has considered anyway given the play-off final. Maybe the old dog can learn new tricks - or maybe he'll be replaced after 10 games.

[Stevo985]

8 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

A few short weeks ago, everything WAS terrible. That was the concern that many of the "anti-Bruce" brigade feared and it so nearly came to be. The fact that now everything is OK (hopefully) does not get Bruce off the hook. 

It was, but I think putting the financial instability of the club on Bruce is extremely harsh (although not unexpected)

8 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

I want to see something long term and sustainable built at Villa. Bruce really is not the man to do that - show me examples of where he has built something long term at a club? Please don't assume that I don't enjoy supporting my club because I don't agree with what the manager is doing. On match day I will support the club like everyone else, I will enjoy the wins like everyone else. 

Again you're just turning this into a debate on bruce's successes/failures. Which it never was.
And I made no assumptions about you. I was making a general point about some supporters.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Stevo985

[osmark86]

7 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Yeah it looks like an order from up high, and must be something bruce has considered anyway given the play-off final. Maybe the old dog can learn new tricks - or maybe he'll be replaced after 10 games.

well it's something that we'll see over the coming games.

I think people make too much fuss over the guy's age tbh. It's as if the common feeling is that since he is old his ways are outdated and he is incapable of learning and approaching problems differently. I believe he is smarter than this and also has demonstrated willingness to try different things albeit with mixed results. I can understand criticism of him from the point of view of his managerial abilities, but bringing age into the equation is a cheap shot at best and straight up discriminatory at worse.

edit: just to be clear Jareth, this is a general observation and in no way a shot at you 

Edited August 6, 2018 by osmark86

[TheStagMan]

Just now, Stevo985 said:

It was, but I think putting the financial instability of the club on Bruce is extremely harsh (although not unexpected)

Again you're just turning this into a debate on bruce's successes/failures. Which it never was.
And I made no assumptions about you. I was making a general point about some supporters in general, to which you've responded and seem to think I'm talking about you 

I have not said Bruce is responsible for the financial instability of the club. That is mostly Xia, however his approach is not a sustainable one financially and has a contributory affect to the financial weaknesses of the club - ergo partially responsible. High wages, old players with no sell-on fees etc. The concern was that we had over extended ourselves (we had, by far more than any of us realised) and that the only way to balance the books was to get promoted. The Bruce way was a one-shot all-or-nothing approach, which was fine as an approach - but it HAD to work. It didn't.

To your last point:

I didn't say you were talking about me specifically, I was giving you my view as one of the "Bruce out brigade" to show you that your generalizations are wrong.

[eholm]

1 minute ago, osmark86 said:

well it's something that we'll see over the coming games.

I think people make too much fuss over the guy's age tbh. It's as if the common feeling is that since he is old his ways are outdated and he is incapable of learning and approaching problems differently. I believe he is smarter than this and also has demonstrated willingness to try different things albeit with mixed results. I can understand criticism of him from the point of view of his managerial abilities, but bringing age into the equation is a cheap shot at best and straight up discriminatory at worse.

Wow....'old dog, new tricks' is a figure of speech. Don't see why people would view that as discriminatory??

[osmark86]

1 minute ago, TheStagMan said:

I have not said Bruce is responsible for the financial instability of the club. That is mostly Xia, however his approach is not a sustainable one financially and has a contributory affect to the financial weaknesses of the club - ergo partially responsible. High wages, old players with no sell-on fees etc. The concern was that we had over extended ourselves (we had, by far more than any of us realised) and that the only way to balance the books was to get promoted. The Bruce way was a one-shot all-or-nothing approach, which was fine as an approach - but it HAD to work. It didn't.

To your last point:

I didn't say you were talking about me specifically, I was giving you my view as one of the "Bruce out brigade" to show you that your generalizations are wrong.

I'm pretty sure if Bruce got a go ahead from the owner that he could have whatever players he wanted to achieve the goal set for him, then he was free to do so without having to consider the financial implications. I think it's pretty lame to blame Bruce for this as his job is the football not the financing of the football.

[osmark86]

2 minutes ago, eholm said:

Wow....'old dog, new tricks' is a figure of speech. Don't see why people would view that as discriminatory??

I know that and was referring to the name-calling we've seen on here. Dinosaur is a term that springs to mind. 

[Stevo985]

7 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

 

I didn't say you were talking about me specifically, I was giving you my view as one of the "Bruce out brigade" to show you that your generalizations are wrong.

Cool. I wasn't making assumptions about the "Bruce Out Brigade", of which I am one (assuming you mean people who would prefer Bruce wasn't our manager).

[TheStagMan]

7 minutes ago, osmark86 said:

I'm pretty sure if Bruce got a go ahead from the owner that he could have whatever players he wanted to achieve the goal set for him, then he was free to do so without having to consider the financial implications. I think it's pretty lame to blame Bruce for this as his job is the football not the financing of the football.

A job which he failed at. Leaving us in the financial mire. Deliberate or not, a CONTRIBUTION to the situation. Why is that so difficult to understand? In any case I dont believe nowadays you can separate out the financing of the football and the football itself.

I can't believe people give him a free pass in this. His method is unsustainable if it doesn't work. Therefore he is PARTLY responsible for the financial situation the club is in. As an experienced manager of 20+ years, he MUST know what is reasonable and what is likely to bankrupt the club, if he doesn't, or doesn't care then it is frankly negligence. 

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by TheStagMan

[eholm]

Again, I don't think that term, dinosaur, is discriminatory. I use it myself to indicate a manager who uses outdated tactics and strategies....it is the approach that is dated not the physical attributes of the man himself!

[TheStagMan]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

Cool. I wasn't making assumptions about the "Bruce Out Brigade", of which I am one (assuming you mean people who would prefer Bruce wasn't our manager).

Peace dude. Let's leave it there. I have work to do  and I think everyone else is probably bored now. 

[sheepyvillian]

37 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

I wasn't quoting you, I was quoting Bobzy where he had asked me to show him where he had said he was happy with the performances last season. 

 

But since you have responded........

1) I did enjoy wining games last season, there were some fun times, as well as there being some shit times, agreed it was nice to be competitive.

2) Despite the fun times and some enjoyable games, the set objective was not achieved. Yes, it has perversely done us a great deal of good (hopefully) in that we are now under the stewardship of very (demonstrably) wealthy and successful individuals, BUT that has been a fluke of good luck.

3) A dislike of Bruce does not stop me from enjoying wins (clarification: I do not dislike Bruce, I dislike the football he serves up). However he is a short term fix for a problem - get us promoted immediately. He has failed to do this, and in my opinion, our opportunity to use this methodology has passed. We need to build a sustainable future for the club, Bruce has never shown any ability to do that, so every day he is here is a day where we have not started our long-term rebuild.

4) It's all about targets I suppose, if your target is to enjoy football matches and wins, enjoy being competitive in this league, then yes, Bruce's tenure has been successful, if your target is to return to the prem, then he has not. The danger is, the longer we stay here, the further we will slip. Look at Leeds and Forest. Great, historic clubs like ours that are languishing in this division with little realistic chance of getting out.

Great post.

[PompeyVillan]

43 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

No, I wouldn't say so.

I was happy with last season. I haven't enjoyed a season like last season since MON's days. I went to VP every week knowing we'd probably win. And we usually did. We scored loads of goals and it was often decent football, and I got a day out at Wembley from it.

Ultimately we failed, because we're still in the Championship. But I was happy with the season because it was fun.

 

Like I've said a few times, it's a shame some posters are so obsessed with disliking Bruce, or obsessed with the black and white of promotion = good and Championship = bad, that they couldn't let themselves enjoy what was the most enjoyable season we've had in close to a decade, and could be the most enjoyable season we have for a while to come (depending on how the new owners run the place)

Good post. Last season was really fun, we had some great games. The celebrations at Sheffield Wednesday away were superb. 

I pay my ticket price to go and enjoy the football, I even enjoy it sometimes when we lose. I go with friends, it's a day out. 

If the football was truly rubbish and boring then I wouldn't enjoy it. I think becoming obsessed with 'sucess' is foolish, because we've little realistic chance of success at the top level. Winning the Championship is the most realistic chance of silverware we've had for years and will have for a few more.