Steve Bruce

[TheStagMan]

15 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

 

There are no obvious replacements I agree. But we’re just fans, not employed or with enough knowledge to really know who is available. Did many of us know about Pochettino before he arrived at Southampton. Or Wagner, Eddie Howe, Sean Dyche? Would we have been clambering for Santo when he arrived at Wolves. These guys are all now hot property and as such probably out of our reach. Someone at the club needs to be able to unearth the next hot property, because by the time they’ve become an obvious choice, it’s too late.

Not easy I know, but that’s what we ultimately need. Southampton have been pretty good at it for a while and Wolves new owners certainly appear to have got it right. Mr Wyness and his merry men have a big responsibility. If they’re not up to it, then they need to move over and let someone else try. But that’s for another thread. 

True, I am not qualified to identify a new manager - It's not my job to do so - for example, I knew nothing about Martin O'Neil before he joined the club (!!)- I would hope that there are people at the club who are qualified and have a list of potential managerial targets as you suggest.

However, as a fan - someone who has watched Villa all my life, and also watched other teams for comparison I am qualified to say that what we are seeing on the pitch is just not good enough. Some people blame the players, I don't buy that - some of these players were the best performers at the their championship clubs, others are tried and tested premier league players. Most managers and fans in this league would love to have our players. All are more capable than the dross we are seeing served up on the pitch and that is down to the manager. 

Unfortunately it appears on here that it is not permitted to want Bruce gone unless you have a full list of replacement managers who are better and are guaranteed to get us automatic promotion.

Newsflash - it is perfectly acceptable to ask the question without knowing the answer. Sometimes you have to roll the dice and take a chance, unfortunately the opportunity to do that has gone, and now were are really in trouble.   

We have had a run of decent results - but these results are not reflective of the (majority of) poor performances, and this is not sustainable. We STILL cannot hold onto the ball, we cannot retain possession and take pressure off ourselves, which always results in backs to the wall defending. This will bite us and I do fear a massive kicking coming up over the next couple of months. 

We keep saying "the next x games are massive", and we sort of scrape through them just doing enough for it to be "acceptable" but not great, we also seem to be lowering our expectations each time. At the start of the season we were aiming for promotion as champions, then automatic promotion - and given the resources and players available, the money spent and the supposed pedigree of our manager (four promotions, FOUR) automatic promotion should be the minimum target. 

Now we are accepting of a play off place. Anything down to 6th seems to be acceptable. And yet people seem to think that we will make it through the playoffs. I don't know what about our performances to sate, and especially against the teams we would be likely to meet in the playoffs makes people think that we would have any chance of going up via the playoffs. 

I worry that "gaining a play off place" but ultimately losing out on promotion will be seen as a result at the end of the season. Maybe it will be because I can guarantee one thing - if we continue the way we are, lady luck smiles on us and we continue to scrape results and do somehow get up via the playoffs, we will come straight back down, with possibly a more embarrassing set of results than last time. 

We should have been using our time down here to  develop a playing style, getting momentum behind us, confidence flowing and getting Villa park buzzing - not coming out with **** like "a point is a great result because we would have lost that game last season". Being better than the utter crap we have been is not good enough. Unfortunately we have wasted a season and a half - messing around with a manager who is not capable of getting us playing how we need to be.

Well at the risk of repeating the mantra: the next 6 really are massive as we now start to play the decent teams - teams whom we have not yet managed to get a result against. Will be interesting to see where we are by the end of the year - I honestly think we will be out of the top six.

 

[AvfcRigo82]

4 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Not hilarious. Just obviously incorrect.

Most people were for Bruce's appointment. At least the majority.

I would guess not even 5% of fans would have wanted Warnock.

 

I agree on your previous post with the majority of what you say.

As much as it would be mental to sack him after immediate promotion, many would prob deem it mental that we are not currently walking away with this league.

Yes that kind of immediate sacking is mental and unheard of, but I am sure you would agree football is changing all the time.

Managers in other countries have been sacked for achieving a whole lot more.

[Stevo985]

3 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

I agree on your previous post with the majority of what you say.

As much as it would be mental to sack him after immediate promotion, many would prob deem it mental that we are not currently walking away with this league.

Yes that kind of immediate sacking is mental and unheard of, but I am sure you would agree football is changing all the time.

Managers in other countries have been sacked for achieving a whole lot more.

Yes. That was my point.

Bruce won't be sacked if we go up, even if I think it wouldn't be a bad thing.

[NurembergVillan]

1 hour ago, villarocker said:

Totally agree with you NV. I think that every Villa fan would agree with you on that!

I think that people only criticise the style of play because, like me, they see it as a weakness and could cost us against the better teams, jeopardizing our chances of promotion. 

If Bruce gets us up playing this style of football - fair play to the man. He will have succeeded. 

And I don't disagree.  I do worry that we may not have enough nous to beat the higher placed/performing teams.

That said, we're largely beating whatever is put in front of us at the moment.  And at the very least we're hardly ever losing.  Playing stylish football is great, but it's also no guarantee of beating everyone.

Wolves have been playing the best football in the division, with the best players, and are rightfully top.  They scraped past 10-man Small Heath the other night, and then drew 0-0 at home to a Sunderland side who haven't won a match since 1912.

I'd like to see more, I'd like to think the players are capable of more, but as things stand we're still making progress.  At least now we're angry about drawing home matches instead of being angry about getting slapped like we have been for the last few years.

Onwards and up the Villa.

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

Not hilarious. Just obviously incorrect.

Most people were for Bruce's appointment. At least the majority.

I would guess not even 5% of fans would have wanted Warnock.

 

From what I remember the majority were underwhelmed but understood the logic.

I agree had we appointed Warnock fans wouldn't have been happy about it but it would have been the same logic as Bruce. 

I wouldn't say fans were happy with Bruce either. It was more of a 'well he has a good promotion record so guess it makes sense'.

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 hour ago, villarocker said:

Totally agree with you NV. I think that every Villa fan would agree with you on that!

I think that people only criticise the style of play because, like me, they see it as a weakness and could cost us against the better teams, jeopardizing our chances of promotion. 

If Bruce gets us up playing this style of football - fair play to the man. He will have succeeded. 

For me it's not the style of play as such. It's the execution of it. 

If Bruce's tactic is to keep tight, defend, frustrate the opponent and then hit them on the break with fast counter attacks. I'm more than happy with that on the condition we do it well. (as we did against Preston and QPR.)

The problem is more often than not it seems like the players are just sent out to win with no plan on how to do it. It all seems aimless ,sloppy and clumsy, and when up against a team that has a game plan we end up looking quite inferior. 

Saturday was a good example of this. 

[NurembergVillan]

1 hour ago, TheStagMan said:

True, I am not qualified to identify a new manager - It's not my job to do so - for example, I knew nothing about Martin O'Neil before he joined the club (!!)- I would hope that there are people at the club who are qualified and have a list of potential managerial targets as you suggest.

However, as a fan - someone who has watched Villa all my life, and also watched other teams for comparison I am qualified to say that what we are seeing on the pitch is just not good enough. Some people blame the players, I don't buy that - some of these players were the best performers at the their championship clubs, others are tried and tested premier league players. Most managers and fans in this league would love to have our players. All are more capable than the dross we are seeing served up on the pitch and that is down to the manager. 

Unfortunately it appears on here that it is not permitted to want Bruce gone unless you have a full list of replacement managers who are better and are guaranteed to get us automatic promotion.

Newsflash - it is perfectly acceptable to ask the question without knowing the answer. Sometimes you have to roll the dice and take a chance, unfortunately the opportunity to do that has gone, and now were are really in trouble.   

We have had a run of decent results - but these results are not reflective of the (majority of) poor performances, and this is not sustainable. We STILL cannot hold onto the ball, we cannot retain possession and take pressure off ourselves, which always results in backs to the wall defending. This will bite us and I do fear a massive kicking coming up over the next couple of months. 

We keep saying "the next x games are massive", and we sort of scrape through them just doing enough for it to be "acceptable" but not great, we also seem to be lowering our expectations each time. At the start of the season we were aiming for promotion as champions, then automatic promotion - and given the resources and players available, the money spent and the supposed pedigree of our manager (four promotions, FOUR) automatic promotion should be the minimum target. 

Now we are accepting of a play off place. Anything down to 6th seems to be acceptable. And yet people seem to think that we will make it through the playoffs. I don't know what about our performances to sate, and especially against the teams we would be likely to meet in the playoffs makes people think that we would have any chance of going up via the playoffs. 

I worry that "gaining a play off place" but ultimately losing out on promotion will be seen as a result at the end of the season. Maybe it will be because I can guarantee one thing - if we continue the way we are, lady luck smiles on us and we continue to scrape results and do somehow get up via the playoffs, we will come straight back down, with possibly a more embarrassing set of results than last time. 

We should have been using our time down here to  develop a playing style, getting momentum behind us, confidence flowing and getting Villa park buzzing - not coming out with **** like "a point is a great result because we would have lost that game last season". Being better than the utter crap we have been is not good enough. Unfortunately we have wasted a season and a half - messing around with a manager who is not capable of getting us playing how we need to be.

Well at the risk of repeating the mantra: the next 6 really are massive as we now start to play the decent teams - teams whom we have not yet managed to get a result against. Will be interesting to see where we are by the end of the year - I honestly think we will be out of the top six.

 

^^^ That's tongue in cheek.  I appreciate you taking the time to fully explain why you have the viewpoint you do.

I do, however, think we as a fanbase are so used to fearing the worst - things won't get better they'll only deteriorate - because that's what we've been so used to in the last 10 or so years.  Probably longer.

Under MON we thought we'd get 4th, but it ultimately failed (and style of football was mooted as a reason then too).  Then we just kept getting worse and worse until the 10th game of last season when it wouldn't have been unreasonable to think we were going down again.

I agree with your point that we should/could have been developing a playing style down here.  But then to a certain extent we don't know the psychological damage inside VP and Bodymoor.  Look at the psychological damage to the fanbase - we draw a game and it's the end of the world.  Everything will come falling down again.

A good example of this being your line "...and now we are really in trouble".  Are we?  Are we really?  Or are we just so used to failing, so conditioned that "winter is coming", so familiar with and comforted by drama, that this is how it feels when we draw 0-0 and still sit in the play-off places?

Could we be doing better?  Yes.   But we're still on track for AT LEAST the play offs, and then we're only a couple of games away from Wembley and our rightful place of 15th in the Premier League.

[NurembergVillan]

7 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

If Bruce's tactic is to keep tight, defend, frustrate the opponent and then hit them on the break with fast counter attacks. I'm more than happy with that on the condition we do it well. (as we did against Preston and QPR.)

I'm not, because I think we lack genuine, scary pace in every single position on the field.  I think it's arguably our biggest weakness.

[Demitri_C]

Its strange how we struggle against the poorer sides at home, 1-0 bolton, sunderland, 0-0 brentford and millwall

we really should be pasting some sides at home. Despite his flaws we are badly missing big kodj

[vreitti]

1 hour ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

I agree on your previous post with the majority of what you say.

As much as it would be mental to sack him after immediate promotion, many would prob deem it mental that we are not currently walking away with this league.

Yes that kind of immediate sacking is mental and unheard of, but I am sure you would agree football is changing all the time.

Managers in other countries have been sacked for achieving a whole lot more.

All this talk of a sacking being mental given whatever outcome at the end of the season is frankly ridiculous. S'ton fired Puel after he had them finishing 8th last season. Probably their best finish in decades. Our dear neighbors fired Rowett when they were seriously challenging for top6 last season. Sometimes tough decisions are needed. That's just nature of the beast. The world of football is brutal. What we need is a long term plan, and we need ppl in charge that are willing to make tough decisions when things aren't working out according to the plan. At the moment we have neither of these things. We are merely left hoping things work out for the best. I don't think they will with Bruce in charge.

[villa89]

Just now, Demitri_C said:

Its strange how we struggle against the poorer sides at home, 1-0 bolton, sunderland, 0-0 brentford and millwall

we really should be pasting some sides at home. Despite his flaws we are badly missing big kodj

I don't find it strange at all. Good teams put poorer sides to the sword by passing the ball and creating chances that way. Bruce sets us up to play defensively and counter attack/hoof. It's a recipe for disaster if you are up against a semi organised team who's happy to settle for a draw.

[Vive_La_Villa]

6 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

I'm not, because I think we lack genuine, scary pace in every single position on the field.  I think it's arguably our biggest weakness.

It seems like that's how Bruce wants us to play though even if the pace isn't there. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

3 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Its strange how we struggle against the poorer sides at home, 1-0 bolton, sunderland, 0-0 brentford and millwall

we really should be pasting some sides at home. Despite his flaws we are badly missing big kodj

It's as expected to be honest because of our lack of moment and creativity. Teams that shut up shop will have a lot of joy against us. 

[Demitri_C]

1 minute ago, villa89 said:

I don't find it strange at all. Good teams put poorer sides to the sword by passing the ball and creating chances that way. Bruce sets us up to play defensively and counter attack/hoof. It's a recipe for disaster if you are up against a semi organised team who's happy to settle for a draw.

Yes valid points, there doenst seem to be a plan B. This is one thing I said eralier this season, we have so little pace that we struggle to counter attack when we come up with fullbacks that are quick. the amount of times adomah tried to break but then was smothered by two quick millwall fullbacks/midfielders. Hats off to Millwaal they really were excellent and Bruce just didnt have a clue. you would think elmo would have started at rb that would have helped as hutton badly struggled. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

5 minutes ago, vreitti said:

All this talk of a sacking being mental given whatever outcome at the end of the season is frankly ridiculous. S'ton fired Puel after he had them finishing 8th last season. Probably their best finish in decades. Our dear neighbors fired Rowett when they were seriously challenging for top6 last season. Sometimes tough decisions are needed. That's just nature of the beast. The world of football is brutal. What we need is a long term plan, and we need ppl in charge that are willing to make tough decisions when things aren't working out according to the plan. At the moment we have neither of these things. We are merely left hoping things work out for the best. I don't think they will with Bruce in charge.

Agree. Watford have sacked several managers since (and during) the promotion year and it's worked out well for them.

The thing is both Watford and Southampton seem to have a type of manager they want. Someone that fits the profile and more often than not they get it right. Our manager selection process over the years has been appalling. In the case of Mcleish it was actually frightening. 

[Demitri_C]

5 minutes ago, vreitti said:

All this talk of a sacking being mental given whatever outcome at the end of the season is frankly ridiculous. S'ton fired Puel after he had them finishing 8th last season. Probably their best finish in decades. Our dear neighbors fired Rowett when they were seriously challenging for top6 last season. Sometimes tough decisions are needed. That's just nature of the beast. The world of football is brutal. What we need is a long term plan, and we need ppl in charge that are willing to make tough decisions when things aren't working out according to the plan. At the moment we have neither of these things. We are merely left hoping things work out for the best. I don't think they will with Bruce in charge.

You cant be seriously suggesting sacking Bruce while we sit in 5th ? Yes and look and blose now they have imploded why take an un-necessary risk when its not needed? last time we lost was away to wolves. It would be ridiculous and small fry (like blose) to sack bruce. get behind him and the side until end of the season and then a decision will have to be made if we dont go up.

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

5 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

You cant be seriously suggesting sacking Bruce while we sit in 5th ? Yes and look and blose now they have imploded why take an un-necessary risk when its not needed? last time we lost was away to wolves. It would be ridiculous and small fry (like blose) to sack bruce. get behind him and the side until end of the season and then a decision will have to be made if we dont go up.

 

We lost to Sheff Wed but either way I think @vreitti was referring to sacking Bruce even if we got promoted. 

[dn1982]

23 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Agree. Watford have sacked several managers since (and during) the promotion year and it's worked out well for them.

The thing is both Watford and Southampton seem to have a type of manager they want. Someone that fits the profile and more often than not they get it right. Our manager selection process over the years has been appalling. In the case of Mcleish it was actually frightening. 

Managers rarely get sacked when doing well. Rowett and Blues being a case in point but the one difference is I think Rowett got his team over for me we are underachieving. Bruce won’t go anywhere whilst we are in the playoffs but come January Xia will have a stark choice gamble or cross your fingers. I can see us dropping out by Jan after this tough run. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

8 minutes ago, dn1982 said:

Managers rarely get sacked when doing well. Rowett and Blues being a case in point but the one difference is I think Rowett got his team over for me we are underachieving. Bruce won’t go anywhere whilst we are in the playoffs but come January Xia will have a stark choice gamble or cross your fingers. I can see us dropping out by Jan after this tough run. 

I mentioned previously if we go on an abysmal run in December and fail to win we could end up adrift of the playoffs. 

As you say what does the club do that point? 

Still it's all hypothetical and if we continue the form since the Norwich game we should still be firmly in contention for the playoffs. 

I just fear that the team look tired, jaded and lacklustre. I can't see us picking up too many points in December. 

[Demitri_C]

41 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

We lost to Sheff Wed but either way I think @vreitti was referring to sacking Bruce even if we got promoted. 

Ah yes, still cant blieve we lost that one, what a goal that was