England Euro 2016 Chat

[Zatman]

Belgium might be unbalanced but have 2 top class defenders in the team and Vermaelen is an experienced head as well. Definite a concentration issue and you have to wonder what the point of the famous Liverpool psychologist is with the squad if that keeps happening

[PaulC]

I think England also have a problem with their fullbacks playing like wingers in the formation Hodgson uses.  I'm all for fullbaks being able to attack but their first duty is to be able to defend. Leicester have the balance right. walker was great first two games but he was never tested defensively. 

[mikeyp102]

7 hours ago, VillaChris said:

Well remembered on the euro 2000 qualifying...England started with 2-1 defeat in Sweden and then 0-0 draw at home to Bulgaria in which Hoddle was booed off so he was under massive pressure before the disability comments and probably would've been sacked regardless.

He did well in qualifying for France 98 by finishing ahead of Italy but again in that tournament England were in a group with Romania, Colombia and Tunisia...and finished 2nd. Nothing changes much does it?

I too am bemused why he's suddenly been painted as this super coach. His stints at Spurs and especially Wolves in the 2000s were very mediocre. 

Yep Hoddle is awful, there is a reason he hasn't worked for 10 years... He used to put the likes of Carl Cort on the wing 

[mikeyp102]

You'd say Rooney, Milner and Cahill should never play again, but you know they probably will. The others are probably young enough to still get in 

[Demitri_C]

Wenger being linked I think that would be a excellent appointment personally. If Arsenal have another poor season he could be leaving. FA should make their move soon. 

[Demitri_C]

 

[Ryan.]

Wenger is a top manager, no doubt, but I have no faith in our players to execute tiki taka. I really believe we need to get back to basics with a 4-4-2 with proper wingers and a solid structure. Big Sam for me, not glamorous but we're rock bottom, basics first. 

[kurtsimonw]

1 hour ago, Ryan. said:

Wenger is a top manager, no doubt, but I have no faith in our players to execute tiki taka

If Wenger is a top manager, he won't have us playing that way. Surely one of the fundamental things to even being an average manager is understand what the players you have can and can not do?

[reykjavik]

1 hour ago, Ryan. said:

Wenger is a top manager, no doubt, but I have no faith in our players to execute tiki taka. I really believe we need to get back to basics with a 4-4-2 with proper wingers and a solid structure. Big Sam for me, not glamorous but we're rock bottom, basics first. 

Yes, England need to go back to basics.  Is the answer 4-4-2, 4-3-3 or something else.

No you need to go much deeper.  Back to fundamental.  

Spain was pain, but suddenly the are one of the best.  German had problem around 2000, now they are number one.  

What happened?

 

How do you build up a good team?  Do you start from professional players or from age of 5, 8, 15 ?

You have to answer questions like, is the framework excellent?  What about attitude and support by the FA, players and fans?  How is your structure?

How is your support to girls and women?  Strange?  It has affected to the framework.  Women and girls are 50% of english families.  Don't forget them.

 

Supporters of my german favorite team are singing "Wir brauchen nur 11 Freunde, und keinen Superstar"

We need just eleven friends and no superstar.  

I believe Icelandic team is build up by eleven friends and no superstar.  

We have definately really good players but no one like Maradona, Beckenbauer, Pele, Messi, Neymar, Muller, Neuer, Beckham, Ronaldo, etc.

You don't have superstars, but do you have players who think and act like a superstar?

 

Your first solution is to find answers to these questions.  

How do you build up a good team?  Do you start from professional players or from age of 5, 8, 15 ?

Is the framework excellent?  What about attitude and support by the FA, players, family and parents?  How is your structure?

Than you can make a plan.

 

(Aston Villa is in same situations)

(see also post pg. 102)

[PaulC]

Good post but when talking about atructure, framework etc, you only have to look at Wales. They have reached the quarters. Most of their players are playing in the Premier League. They have a smaller pool of players to pick from. Ramsey was no better than Ali last season but has outperformed him in these euros. I think its purely down to the manager and the coaching staff. The players are good enough but they just dont perform when the pressure is on. 

[kurtsimonw]

IMO it is down to the makeup of the Premier League. 

Young players need to be given a chance, and to play at a high level early in their career. Germany and Spain are both doing well, they have good leagues, but it's different. Bayern can afford to bring through a player and give him a chance, why? Because they've nothing to lose. They lack any kind of competition. It's essentially the same at Barca, though they do have Madrid as competition. Beyond that, you have clubs like Dortmund, Schalke, Valencia, Sevilla. They've been able give young players a chance and still play in the Champions League, because they generally don't have to worry about dropping too far. yes, the odd year in the Europa League, but rarely below that. 

In England, you can't do that. City play a kid and it costs them, United, Chelsea, Arsenal might overtake them. Our second tier teams, they could miss out on Europe altogether for the sake of developing youngsters. So they get loaned out. They play for midtable clubs, they aren't European regulars. If somehow they continue to develop surrounded by lesser players, then they might get a chance. Here, if you slip up, you'll have any club in the league happy to spend £10/£15m on multiple players to try and take your place. When you have the money at your disposal, in a league where spending £50m in a summer means you'll stand still and not go backwards, it's no wonder clubs worry about the now and sign developed players rather than being too concerned about bringing through their own.

This is before you even get in to the managerial side of things. There's basically no "English way" anymore. The whole "4-4-****-2!" thing gets laughed at, but it's sad. The last time we had any kind of identity was when 4-4-2 was prominent.

The youth thing is nonsense IMO. Spain and Germany won 3 U17s tournaments between them about 10 years ago. Is that a sign of their youth coming through? Is that why now those 16/17 year olds have been successful in recent years? Not really, it's a lottery at that age. We won it in 2010 and 2014, doesn't mean the same will happen. Because it's not a youth issue at all. 

[VillaChris]

30 minutes ago, PaulC said:

Good post but when talking about atructure, framework etc, you only have to look at Wales. They have reached the quarters. Most of their players are playing in the Premier League. They have a smaller pool of players to pick from. Ramsey was no better than Ali last season but has outperformed him in these euros. I think its purely down to the manager and the coaching staff. The players are good enough but they just dont perform when the pressure is on. 

Wales are very settled in their 3-5-2. Played it all through qualifying and in this tournament, Wales players know what to do inside out.

It's interesting when you look at Wales, Toshack took so much flak and they never achieved much in his reign but he started playing 3-5-2, got young players in the squad and also gave Ashley Williams his debut when he was playing in league one for Swansea.

Maybe it might be similar with Woy 5-6 years down the line. I'm not holding my breath though!

[reykjavik]

38 minutes ago, PaulC said:

Good post but when talking about atructure, framework etc, you only have to look at Wales. They have reached the quarters. Most of their players are playing in the Premier League. They have a smaller pool of players to pick from. Ramsey was no better than Ali last season but has outperformed him in these euros. I think its purely down to the manager and the coaching staff. The players are good enough but they just dont perform when the pressure is on. 

 

15 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said:

IMO it is down to the makeup of the Premier League. 

Young players need to be given a chance, and to play at a high level early in their career. Germany and Spain are both doing well, they have good leagues, but it's different. Bayern can afford to bring through a player and give him a chance, why? Because they've nothing to lose. They lack any kind of competition. It's essentially the same at Barca, though they do have Madrid as competition. Beyond that, you have clubs like Dortmund, Schalke, Valencia, Sevilla. They've been able give young players a chance and still play in the Champions League, because they generally don't have to worry about dropping too far. yes, the odd year in the Europa League, but rarely below that. 

In England, you can't do that. City play a kid and it costs them, United, Chelsea, Arsenal might overtake them. Our second tier teams, they could miss out on Europe altogether for the sake of developing youngsters. So they get loaned out. They play for midtable clubs, they aren't European regulars. If somehow they continue to develop surrounded by lesser players, then they might get a chance. Here, if you slip up, you'll have any club in the league happy to spend £10/£15m on multiple players to try and take your place. When you have the money at your disposal, in a league where spending £50m in a summer means you'll stand still and not go backwards, it's no wonder clubs worry about the now and sign developed players rather than being too concerned about bringing through their own.

This is before you even get in to the managerial side of things. There's basically no "English way" anymore. The whole "4-4-****-2!" thing gets laughed at, but it's sad. The last time we had any kind of identity was when 4-4-2 was prominent.

The youth thing is nonsense IMO. Spain and Germany won 3 U17s tournaments between them about 10 years ago. Is that a sign of their youth coming through? Is that why now those 16/17 year olds have been successful in recent years? Not really, it's a lottery at that age. We won it in 2010 and 2014, doesn't mean the same will happen. Because it's not a youth issue at all. 

 

4 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

Wales are very settled in their 3-5-2. Played it all through qualifying and in this tournament, Wales players know what to do inside out.

It's interesting when you look at Wales, Toshack took so much flak and they never achieved much in his reign but he started playing 3-5-2, got young players in the squad and also gave Ashley Williams his debut when he was playing in league one for Swansea.

Maybe it might be similar with Woy 5-6 years down the line. I'm not holding my breath though!

Now we are talking about fundamentals.

I do not have the right answers.  But what makes Wales a better team than England?  Is the answer "Wales players know what to do inside out" ?  

Why and how do they know it?  What is different?  Mentally, structure....?

The answer (now) is not 4-4-2 or 3-5-2.  But it lead you there, in the end.

 

Yes it is a lottery at that age. You have to focus on youth.  Not because you want title at that age. You have to focus on youth because you want win Europe Cup or World Cup later.  If you have good youth team it is more likely that the same will happend later.  Nothing is certain.

[Zatman]

England have to take a hard look at themselves and really should have since 2006 and how the game is developed. not just football but coaching as well, only 4 English managers in Premier League at moment. Compared to Welsh midfield the England team dont look as composed on the ball except Dier and thats because he learned his trade in Portugal

Germany did it in 2000 and look at players they have developed but it needs to be a long term plan that cant be done overnight. FA needs to look at say 2024 Euros as a time to build a team but doubt media will give them such leverage

[Ryan.]

2 hours ago, kurtsimonw said:

If Wenger is a top manager, he won't have us playing that way. Surely one of the fundamental things to even being an average manager is understand what the players you have can and can not do?

There's a reason Arsenal have a very descript style of play. There's also a reason why he was the first manager to pick a non English 16.

Picking from a specified group of players couldn't be further apart from club football.

Expecting him to "play another way" is laughable and not a risk we can afford to take.

[kurtsimonw]

Just now, Ryan. said:

There's a reason Arsenal have a very descript style of play. There's also a reason why he was the first manager to pick a non English 16.

Picking from a specified group of players couldn't be further apart from club football.

Expecting him to "play another way" is laughable and not a risk we can afford to take.

I don't disagree. I don't think Wenger is good enough to be able to do anything different, so taking him on would likely be poor judgment.

[VillaChris]

19 minutes ago, Zatman said:

England have to take a hard look at themselves and really should have since 2006 and how the game is developed. not just football but coaching as well, only 4 English managers in Premier League at moment. Compared to Welsh midfield the England team dont look as composed on the ball except Dier and thats because he learned his trade in Portugal

Germany did it in 2000 and look at players they have developed but it needs to be a long term plan that cant be done overnight. FA needs to look at say 2024 Euros as a time to build a team but doubt media will give them such leverage

They've already said they're winning World cup 2022....

[Zatman]

in fairness im not sure if any manager could get a right system for this team though, not like missing top class players from the squad. Would Theo Walcott, Danny Drinkwater or Michael Carrick really made that much of a difference. Danny Welbeck arguably as he has been good for England

England ironically really lack wingers Townsend and Lennon even Ashley Young maybe not top class but they would have stretched teams and got crosses into Kane instead of passing around the box which they tried to do

[VillaChris]

Thought Welbeck was a big miss.

He's no worldbeater but is a forward happy to play wide in the 4-3-3. Chips in with goals and would've helped the fullbacks.

Him, Kane and then you only have to choose one of Sterling/Lallana/Sturridge which would've been a blessing. 

[kurtsimonw]

I've no problem with Sturridge. I actually think his problem is that he's far too intelligent on the ball for players like Sterling/Kane.