TrentVilla Posted January 18, 2017 Moderator Share Posted January 18, 2017 59 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I know I'm being picky, but people keep saying 'access to the single market'. Everybody in the world has 'access to the single market'. What we want (or what I think most people want) is 'tariff-free access to the single market'. Details.... details they have no place in a Brexit discussion! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted January 18, 2017 Moderator Share Posted January 18, 2017 35 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: When you get some time you should watch Bridge on the River Kwai ... Kwai? (someone had to....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaglint Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 hour ago, TrentVilla said: As I'm sure they were to Italian prisoners in Sutton Park. The above does make a little more a little more sense granted, still think it's a bit of a stretch to say he compared him to a Nazi personally. Trent can we remember that this was written by a journalist and in this day and age "a stretch" is about as close to the truth as you can hope for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: When you get some time you should watch Bridge on the River Kwai ... Hey, I'm just explaining the reference, not trying to provide a comprehensive documented history of punishment beatings through the ages. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, peterms said: Hey, I'm just explaining the reference, not trying to provide a comprehensive documented history of punishment beatings through the ages. tbf it was the reference that I didn't really understand Boris referred to WWII and people sorta came up with a Nazi link , which , well just seemed a huge leap ... for example we had POW camps in Wales though I can't vouch for if beatings took place or not ... , though tbf people were trying to break into them to escape Wales Edited January 18, 2017 by tonyh29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: tbf it was the reference that I didn't really understand Boris referred to WWII and people sorta came up with a Nazi link , which , well just seemed a huge leap ... for example we had POW camps in Wales though I can't vouch for if beatings took place or not ... , though tbf people were trying to break into them to escape Wales He referred to punishment beatings being administered to " anybody who seeks to escape, in the manner of some world war two movie". Let's assume he is referring to the canon of UK WW2 films, rather than say the cinema of Uruguay or Lesotho, for example. In that context, the "escape" most commonly refers to POW camps (not concentration camps as I said earlier), and the camps are most commonly run by Nazis (and yes, there is a WW2 film, maybe more than one, which depicts a similar process in Japanese camps). It's hardly a giant leap of the imagination for the journo to conclude he is comparing the EU to a POW camp. (The Greeks might sympathise with the analogy). In fact, if this is not what Johnson was alluding to, what could it possibly be? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 11 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: though tbf people were trying to break into them to escape Wales Super Dupa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 5 hours ago, villaglint said: Out of interest @Awol pleased at the direction we seem to be taking? (Just to signpost this is genuine interest and not a leading question). I guess what I'm interested in is whether you see immigration as the real scourge here and worth taking this hard line and likely pain for? I know there were plenty of other reasons you wanted to leave one or two that I see the sense in even if I don't agree. But bearing in mind we'll still require plenty of immigration afterwards anyway and I doubt the look and feel of the country will be tremendously effected by "putting up our borders" I am wondering whether those in favour of leaving are pleased at the decisions Mrs May is taking in terms of not trying to negotiate any kind of Norway style agreement and according to Hammond favouring the US style low tax low regulation economy. Yes mate, we're pretty much going down the route set out by the Leave campaign and I'm happy with that. Controlled immigration will continue to be essential but shouldn't be a free for all. As someone currently living as a migrant worker I don't see the issue with work visas and a fair, properly controlled system. As for the likely pain involved I'd compare it to an unpleasant surgery that's required for better long term health. It won't be as simple as some hope or as difficult as others fear, but ultimately worth it. The EU is on a downward trajectory economically and politically. When the next crash hits I'd like us to be as insulated from its problems as possible. Despite this I think broad, deep European cooperation is a good and necessary thing, just not through the current configuration of the EU institutions. Evidently they can't be changed from within so leaving was the only option, imo. Europe isn't going anywhere so once the EU falls over we can start to have sensible conversations with others about rebuilding it, with democratic consent and accountability at its heart. That for me is the essential missing ingredient from what was becoming an anti-democratic, corporatists wet dream. On the economy/deal I think the French particularly will try to play rough. If it becomes clear early on they are dead against a mutually beneficially arrangement, then we should sort out the exit process ASAP and apply no tariffs against EU origin goods or services for a period of 6-12 months after exit. If the EU decides to raise those types of barriers against the U.K. we can reply in kind sector by sector. When it comes to financial services that would include making life very awkward for the big sovereign lenders like DB, while simultaneously going for the Singapore West approach that May outlined. It's easy for the 27 to put up a united front now, but as things in the EZ get ever more difficult (and that is certain imo) politically and economically the already visible cracks will start to deepen and opportunities to change things will appear, perhaps even before 2019. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 hour ago, TrentVilla said: Kwai? (someone had to....) Kawaii close enough.? This you Mr. Trent ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 2 hours ago, tonyh29 said: When you get some time you should watch Bridge on the River Kwai ... Set in Europe was it? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Just now, Awol said: It's easy for the 27 to put up a united front now, but as things in the EZ get ever more difficult (and that is certain imo) politically and economically the already visible cracks will start to deepen and opportunities to change things will appear, perhaps even before 2019. Logically, should we destabilise the EU once we leave at each and every opportunity by any means at our disposal. Yes it 20 something vs 1 but the 20 has France and Greece in it for a start. Not the best in the trenches so to speak ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaglint Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 (edited) Thanks for the detailed reply @Awol it seems that the economic hit which you deem as somewhere in the middle of people expectations is a price worth paying for leaving for the reasons you stated and immigration is neither here nor there. That is of course as valid a reason as any I was just interested because it seems the core reason for leaving (the single market at least) given by the Government is that immigration is the key issue. Edited January 18, 2017 by villaglint 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 6 minutes ago, Awol said: If it becomes clear early on they are dead against a mutually beneficially arrangement, then we should sort out the exit process ASAP and apply no tariffs against EU origin goods or services for a period of 6-12 months after exit. Would we be actually allowed to do this under WTO rules? Quote If the EU decides to raise those types of barriers against the U.K. we can reply in kind sector by sector. When it comes to financial services that would include making life very awkward for the big sovereign lenders like DB, while simultaneously going for the Singapore West approach that May outlined. It's easy for the 27 to put up a united front now, but as things in the EZ get ever more difficult (and that is certain imo) politically and economically the already visible cracks will start to deepen and opportunities to change things will appear, perhaps even before 2019. I think that's a very dangerous game to play. It's one thing perhaps to be seen as the catalyst for the break up of the EU by having a referendum and voting to leave, it's quite another to be trying to take advantage of cracks to almost intentionally break it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 9 minutes ago, snowychap said: Set in Europe was it? did Boris say it had to be ? administer punishment beatings in the manner of some World War Two movie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, snowychap said: Would we be actually allowed to do this under WTO rules? No idea, I just made it up. that's a very dangerous game to play. It's one thing perhaps to be seen as the catalyst for the break up of the EU by having a referendum and voting to leave, it's quite another to be trying to take advantage of cracks to almost intentionally break it up. Meh, it's a dangerous world. I'm not saying we should actively attempt to break up the EU, but we may be able to apply pressure for it to modify its modus operandi - doing them a favour in the process. New leaders bring new ideas and we are likely to see several of the former before the negotiations are completed, so let's see what happens - or as the Chinese foreign minister allegedly said recently when questioned about the outcome of the French Revolution, "it's too soon to tell." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: did Boris say it had to be ? He was in a discussion about leaving the European Union, FFS. To be bringing in Japanese prison guards is a bit of a stretch though unsurprising and not much less insulting. Edited January 18, 2017 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaglint Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Yes we're back in to the moving pieces argument. I just wonder who we'll blame for the short, medium, long term hit however long it turns out to be when we can't blame immigrants anymore. I guess we'll just blame the EU then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 20 minutes ago, peterms said: He referred to punishment beatings being administered to " anybody who seeks to escape, in the manner of some world war two movie". Let's assume he is referring to the canon of UK WW2 films, rather than say the cinema of Uruguay or Lesotho, for example. In that context, the "escape" most commonly refers to POW camps (not concentration camps as I said earlier), and the camps are most commonly run by Nazis (and yes, there is a WW2 film, maybe more than one, which depicts a similar process in Japanese camps). It's hardly a giant leap of the imagination for the journo to conclude he is comparing the EU to a POW camp. (The Greeks might sympathise with the analogy). In fact, if this is not what Johnson was alluding to, what could it possibly be? I suspect if you ran a poll on WWII films Bridge on the River Kwai would be competing for the Top 5 , maybe even Top 3 so again your argument is way off and to try to make a comparison to Lesotho cinema is , well daft really ( OT but Lesotho actually donated 24 spitfires to our war cause , it was called Basutoland at that time but you get the idea) and to think I cut you some slack when you mentioned concentration camps and decided not to labour the point .... I get the comparison Boris made , I was just surprised a man like yourself didn't know that the Nazi's weren't the only people with POW camps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, Awol said: No idea, I just made it up. You're not the only one who has mooted it. I'm sure I've seen it suggested by a person or two on either the Daily Politics or Newsnight recently. Actually, it may have been Gove the other night (I do remember him admitting that he is no expert on international trade, certainly). Wouldn't it fall foul of the Most Favoured Nation thing? I don't know what the penalties are for not playing by the rules, btw. Quote Meh, it's a dangerous world. I'm not saying we should actively attempt to break up the EU, but we may be able to apply pressure for it to modify its modus operandi - doing them a favour in the process. I didn't say that was what you were saying but it would certainly look like us doing that (to me) if that's what we started to do. As I've said before, I don't think it's in anyone's interests to have a Europe with hard borders and with nations free to act on the antagonisms between each other. We may see ourselves as doing them a favour but it runs the risk of us being seen as the bastards that started it all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 minute ago, tonyh29 said: meanwhile maybe practise what you preach 15 minutes ago, snowychap said: To be bringing in Japanese prison guards is a bit of a stretch though unsurprising and not much less insulting. By 'not much less insulting', I meant that any comparison by Boris of Hollande to a Japanese camp guard (as opposed to a German camp guard) would have been not much less insulting to Hollande (or Europeans more widely). If it came across as I meant that your comment was insulting then that's a result of me constructing my sentence badly in the previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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