snowychap Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: Do u guys think that would be reasonable or no? No. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: I think some damage is done by this referendum and activation of article 50. If Uk stays i personaly would like to see your veto gone and u taking the euro i think that would be reasonable because by these actions u weakened EU and euro. Do u guys think that would be reasonable or no? I don't think there's any chance of that happening. I can just about see there being enough political will to potentially back out of this whole mess, and it not causing absolute chaos. Remaining and having much worse terms though? That's unthinkable, it'd be a matter of time until Brexit pt 2. I don't think the EU are naive enough to even consider that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 16, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 16, 2018 Just now, PompeyVillan said: What I read somewhere yesterday is that Scottish Conservatives are thinking of openly pushing for another referendum. They favour two questions, first is the most important "Brexit or no brexit?" and the second "May's deal or not May's deal?". You did, no one ever accused Conservatives of actually understanding democracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 1 hour ago, bickster said: Single Transferable Vote is the best / most democratic option. Two-stage questions are meaningless and over complicated The two stage question also creates a massive legitimacy issue. Assume the first stage is identical to the first referendum result 48-52. So of the 52 percent who get to vote again on the second question the result is equally close 48-52 in favour of coming out with no agreement. That means only a little over a quarter of the population are leading nearly 75% who are getting their undesired outcome. It's quite possibly the worst way to do a vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 13 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: The two stage question also creates a massive legitimacy issue. Assume the first stage is identical to the first referendum result 48-52. So of the 52 percent who get to vote again on the second question the result is equally close 48-52 in favour of coming out with no agreement. That means only a little over a quarter of the population are leading nearly 75% who are getting their undesired outcome. It's quite possibly the worst way to do a vote. Why would only the 52% get to vote on the second question? The result of the first ballot simply determines whether there is a second ballot and, if there is, what the options are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted December 16, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted December 16, 2018 Had to admit to sniggering when seeing the 'don't make holiday plans for after March 2019' headline this morning. Project Fear no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 4 hours ago, blandy said: No, No, let me be very clear. What Labour has said is that May's proposed deal, which involves an initial bag o'shite, followed by a transition period, will be voted down and then Labour will use the transition period, which will have been voted down and thus not exist, to re-negotiate so that the bag o' shite which is such because the EU won't allow their rules to be exempted for a third state (the UK), by asking the EU to exempt their rules for a third state, (the UK). It will be a jobs first Brexit, in which the same contradictions the tories have will miraculously not count anymore, because Jeremy's got a potting shed and isn't an immigration obsessed Maidstone numpty, but is instead an Islington numpty with a penchant for 1970s bedsit revolutionaries. What could possibly go wrong? Less than the current mess aka better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 6 hours ago, bickster said: No no, you forgot the Labour Deal they haven't negotiated but will be campaigning for anyway. Absolute spanners How on earth would that ever get on referendum ballot ? - quite simply it wouldn't. - If that was to be option it would GE not a referendum. I agree with the 3 options Jon put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 16, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 16, 2018 15 minutes ago, hippo said: How on earth would that ever get on referendum ballot ? - quite simply it wouldn't. - If that was to be option it would GE not a referendum. I agree with the 3 options Jon put. Ask today’s Spokesman for the Dimwitted Andrew Gwynne MP. My post was sarcasm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, bickster said: Ask today’s Spokesman for the Dimwitted Andrew Gwynne MP. My post was sarcasm Ah - ok fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted December 16, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted December 16, 2018 There's a shock. She won't move on a second referendum until she is forced to or it pays to her advantage to do so. As her plan is obviously run down the clock and make her deal look palatable against an encroaching no deal scenario, she won't be moving just yet. Hopefully Parliament has a trick up it's sleeve to push her plan down the toilet, fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 16, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, snowychap said: Trial balloon as usual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 We are in a game of chicken. Labour's interest is letting the tories implode before taking a position. This also makes it easier to adopt an agreed stance. Some are uncomfortable with this. The tories know this, and try to push Labour into a position before the splits in tory ranks become unbridgeable. That would involve people breaking the Labour whip, creating major problems for Corbyn. This is why Blair has emerged from his coffin, to help foment dissent. The tories have little time left to do this. The cross-party talks are an attempt to offer the Labour right something they want for two reasons - EU and undermine Corbyn - in the hope of provoking a Labour split before the inevitable tory split, and thereby minimising the tory split. But the act of offering the talks will be seen as treachery by some tories, which raises the temperature on their side too, and may paradoxically make the split happen sooner, or more painfully. Fascinating. Meanwhile, I guess hauliers are divvying up those 2000 permits among 40000 needing them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, peterms said: Labour's interest is letting the tories implode before taking a position. Edited December 16, 2018 by snowychap 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mozzavfc Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 23 hours ago, bickster said: Single Transferable Vote is the best / most democratic option. Two-stage questions are meaningless and over complicated Voting reform?! Get out of here with your crazy ideas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 Intriguing: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 32 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Intriguing: It's all a bit gimmicky. It's not a no-confidence motion in the Government, just in her. Which if it passes means pretty much nothing. It's more of Labour trying to pretend they are doing something without actually doing it. If they had the courage of their convictions they would call the motion against the Government. She's since said that the vote will be in the week starting January 14th, so they don't have to do their little motion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, ml1dch said: It's more of Labour trying to pretend they are doing something without actually doing it. If they had the courage of their convictions they would call the motion against the Government. It's the other way round. Calling a VOC in the government before it can succeed is pretending to do something without actually doing it. Gesture politics. The VOC needs to be called when it can gain a majority. The most likely scenario for that is if the DUP part company with the government. Before then, a VOC runs the risk of rallying support for May, as well as failing. I can see why people are frustrated that Labour doesn't immediately call a VOC. What I don't get is that they appear not to understand why. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, peterms said: It's the other way round. Calling a VOC in the government before it can succeed is pretending to do something without actually doing it. Gesture politics. The VOC needs to be called when it can gain a majority. The most likely scenario for that is if the DUP part company with the government. Before then, a VOC runs the risk of rallying support for May, as well as failing. I can see why people are frustrated that Labour doesn't immediately call a VOC. What I don't get is that they appear not to understand why. The DUP have said they will back a no-confidence motion if May's withdrawal agreement passes through the Commons. If it doesn't pass, they are happy to continue to support the Government. Unless Labour change position to back the deal, the confidence motion isn't passing. So they can either mess around with frivolous threats like today, or come up with a different plan. Or just wait until 2022. Edited December 17, 2018 by ml1dch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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