Jon Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 I nearly helped out at the Foodbank on Saturday morning.Then I remembered I was really really knackered and just sat on my sofa for about an hour trying to use my mental powers to get the kettle in the kitchen to switch on.But I think that's much much better than just not caring.But the practical outcome of thinking about it but not bothering and just not caring are identical. So really not much better at all. True. But he doesn't vote Tory. Actually, I think Mr Crisp does do a fair bit of volunteering and social/Christian based support for the least well off. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 yeah I was being 'funny'The missus still went along, and took half the **** tins out of the cupboard. Due to work and travel commitments my 'caring' boils down largely to funding my wife's good works and winning the internet with my awesome intellect. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 21, 2015 Author Moderator Share Posted October 21, 2015 That's a tad unfair .. I could have lied and pretended I was sheltering 4 Syrians in my spare bedroom whilst weeping about those poor poor over worked nurses but I gave an honest view ....it really isn't " I'm OK Jack " .... but tell , what have you done lately out of interest , how many marches have you been on , how many Syrians are living in your house ?Well, Tony, when you say yourself "It could be argued that I should care about these issues , it could be argued I'm bad and selfish" you can hardly claim it unfair when someone sort of makes exactly that argument.But to de-personalise it from whether you or Jon are nasty or not (you both seem like fine folks to me), the outlook of individuals differs. You mentioned a while back about people's good natures as demonstrated in the Olympics n'that. So someone thinking that privatising the buses or the NHS might be a bad idea and voting for a party against it, even though they may not use buses or the NHS is kind of a similar thing. Voting in the communal interest, rather than not giving a fig, "'cus I don't use 'em".Privatising stuff hasn't gone well for people of this country really, has it? (other than the very rich). Rail - nope. Electricity - Nope and so on. We're in the ludicrous position where all the stuff sold off by the tories is mostly owned by foreigners, foreign hedge funds and foreign governments. And while that lot take profits from our bills and tickets and custom, and use it for their own nations/pockets/influence we end up paying more for stuff, yet begging those lovable Chinese and French to build us a big eff-off nuclear power station and we'll guarantee to pay them (we being bill payers) "economically insane" prices for the electricity it generates. And don't worry about energy security with the Chinese state controlling an English nuclear power station - what could possibly go wrong? It's not like there's an alternative is it (well not if they carry on trashing renewable energy).If you want to know what a word removed is, just look at a picture of Gideon and Cameron. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Xann Posted October 21, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted October 21, 2015 your mates reaction wasn't the same as mine , I've never applauded any loss of life or thought **** them ... those events are tragic and sad but wasn't really the direct issue I was talking about and I'm not sure the comparison is valid ... I'm not saying you're like him, Tone. Just making the point that some have less compassion than others.I think that if you're in government, supposedly looking out for the interests of the many, an inclusive empathy is a quality that's desirable.This lot seem to want to cut many in our society adrift. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 This lot seem to want to cut many in our society adrift.And are 'delighted' when their measures pass (Cameron - tax credits). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Yep, I'd agree with Xann.My student days are long behind me, so I now realise that most every politician gets consumed by the system and there is little difference between them. Other than some intend to do good and some do (for me) genuinely appear to get off on deliberately causing misery.I think (hope) that Hunt telling us to work harder like the Chinese was a lazy thick day on his part. I suspect May is genuinely nasty inside. I suspect that many tory MP's and a good number of their voters would happily make a thousand lives worse, if it meant their life was a tiny bit better.You know where I'm going with this. Osbourne reminds me of Tebbitt and Thatcher. He looks like he might cum every time he cuts some benefit or other. Nasty for the pleasure of it. There are good reasons to change the benefits and tax regime in this country. Good sensible urgent need. He's taken that, and cut the benefits of people that earn £3,800 a year.Millionaire UK pensioners that live in Switzerland get the UK winter heating allowance.He's not very nice. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 I'm fairly apathetic ... none of these issues have effected me Am I concerned about the plight of the NHS ... not overlydo I care if someone gets a contract because they happened to know the right person .. not reallydo I care about the bus service in my area , not reallyIt could be argued that I should care about these issues , it could be argued I'm bad and selfish Europe .... without doubt we'd be better off out I don't careI'm going to take to telling everyone they are evil Yeah, I've taken this data in a completely fair and neutral way, run it through my patented Vote o matic 200 GX which tells you who you should be voting for.It thinks: probably tory? Saved me the trouble that Mr Crisps. I really don't have much time for the 'I'm OK Jack/I'm comfortable, nothing else really matters' brigade. But that is one of the main reasons, if not THE main reasons, the evil ones get into power. That's a tad unfair .. I could have lied and pretended I was sheltering 4 Syrians in my spare bedroom whilst weeping about those poor poor over worked nurses but I gave an honest view ....it really isn't " I'm OK Jack " .... but tell , what have you done lately out of interest , how many marches have you been on , how many Syrians are living in your house ?Honestly, I don't do as much as I could or should. But I care about all of those issues above that you don't seem to, and I donate to the Green Party, which is the party most closely aligned to my own beliefs, conscience, and ideology. Plus I live in a (not massive) 2 bedroom house, with a wife and daughter, so trying to house fugees would be quite problematic. I hear there are quite a few rooms unoccupied at Bucks pal though .... I would happily vote for a party that intended to increase direct tataxtion to pay for things like the NHS, public services, and helping those less fortunate than myself, including fugees. Presently, that would either be the Greens, or a Corbyn reformed Labour Party. Too many Blairites still in there though, so the Greens it is. VT seems to have this belief that that because I once put an X in a box for the Conservatives I can't posses any of those traits that you seem so keen to tell us you have ...honestly you sound as bad as all those bloody Christians and other God bothers'ss ... and it gets mentioned so often it's like you are trying to convince yourself more than anything .The Green party may suit your beliefs , good for you I wouldn't presume to call you evil on the back of those beliefs .. vote away for a party that increses NHS funding , that isn't the solution though. You seem to have a tenancy to always want to make it personal , but don't confuse my apathy on certain subjects that you may hold dear into thinking I'm not a decent person .. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 I suspect that many tory MP's and a good number of their voters would happily make a thousand lives worse, if it meant their life was a tiny bit better. Yeah, that's a core tenet of the Conservatism I have grown up seeing. "My life will be good if I vote Tory. They will protect/elevate my (hard earned/inherited/lucky) position of comfort and consumerism."But what about those at the bottom of the social and economic strata, that are being vistimised by the Conservative Government?"I'm not bothered. That doesn't affect me. They must be there because they are lazy or just plain stupid. Society need an underclass." Love they neighbour? **** that. Every man (or woman) (or robot in Thatcher's case) for themselves. That is obviously the way society will progress ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 That's a tad unfair .. I could have lied and pretended I was sheltering 4 Syrians in my spare bedroom whilst weeping about those poor poor over worked nurses but I gave an honest view .... it really isn't " I'm OK Jack " .... but tell , what have you done lately out of interest , how many marches have you been on , how many Syrians are living in your house ? Well, Tony, when you say yourself "It could be argued that I should care about these issues , it could be argued I'm bad and selfish" you can hardly claim it unfair when someone sort of makes exactly that argument. But to de-personalise it from whether you or Jon are nasty or not (you both seem like fine folks to me), the outlook of individuals differs. You mentioned a while back about people's good natures as demonstrated in the Olympics n'that. So someone thinking that privatising the buses or the NHS might be a bad idea and voting for a party against it, even though they may not use buses or the NHS is kind of a similar thing. Voting in the communal interest, rather than not giving a fig, "'cus I don't use 'em". Privatising stuff hasn't gone well for people of this country really, has it? (other than the very rich). Rail - nope. Electricity - Nope and so on. We're in the ludicrous position where all the stuff sold off by the tories is mostly owned by foreigners, foreign hedge funds and foreign governments. And while that lot take profits from our bills and tickets and custom, and use it for their own nations/pockets/influence we end up paying more for stuff, yet begging those lovable Chinese and French to build us a big eff-off nuclear power station and we'll guarantee to pay them (we being bill payers) "economically insane" prices for the electricity it generates. And don't worry about energy security with the Chinese state controlling an English nuclear power station - what could possibly go wrong? It's not like there's an alternative is it (well not if they carry on trashing renewable energy). If you want to know what a word removed is, just look at a picture of Gideon and Cameron. I didn't mean it bleedin literally You raise another valid point , we've met and thus it's easier for you to marry what I'm saying with the person you've met outside of this forum ... for others taking what's written without any context of the person writing it then I guess you would come to a different conclusion . My post wasn't really about NHS privatisation I was suggesting that my experience of the NHS has been positive and I'm not subscribing to this general view that the NHS has been killed and that money will save it ..I don't doubt some people have a bad experience with the NHS , but look at trip advisor some people have bad experiences with a hotel whilst others call it the best thing on the planet , that doesn't mean that Hotel needs to chuck £2bn at itself and employ 27 more cleaners and reception staff , does it ? How can I get angry about bus services as I said I don't use them .. would be a bit daft of me to lobby or protest about it , that doesn't mean I'm suggesting they should all be scrapped just saying I have complete apathy towards it the no alternative line I think belongs to Dem rather than me ... I was in the meh they are all the same camp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Yep, I'd agree with Xann. My student days are long behind me, so I now realise that most every politician gets consumed by the system and there is little difference between them. Other than some intend to do good and some do (for me) genuinely appear to get off on deliberately causing misery. I think (hope) that Hunt telling us to work harder like the Chinese was a lazy thick day on his part. I suspect May is genuinely nasty inside. I suspect that many tory MP's and a good number of their voters would happily make a thousand lives worse, if it meant their life was a tiny bit better. You know where I'm going with this. Osbourne reminds me of Tebbitt and Thatcher. He looks like he might cum every time he cuts some benefit or other. Nasty for the pleasure of it. There are good reasons to change the benefits and tax regime in this country. Good sensible urgent need. He's taken that, and cut the benefits of people that earn £3,800 a year. Millionaire UK pensioners that live in Switzerland get the UK winter heating allowance. He's not very nice. see this is part of the problem ..it's every pensioner that gets the winter allowance , millionaire or not .. Yer retired honest hard working man retired in Thailand gets it even though he doesn't need it or deserve it anymore than the millionaire pensioner living in Switzerland or England for that matter .... I'm guessing the individual can refuse it or give it back if they are so inclined , no doubt the working man as he probably voted labour all his life (before defecting to the BNP ) in Thailand sent his back or donated it to an orphanage whilst millionaire man spent on a bath of champagne in your book though but regardless , that was a policy that a Labour government introduced in 97 / 98 ? hardly a stick to beat Osborne with ... How much would it cost to means test every person for the heating allowance would be the question your should be asking and could Osborne implement this , as he indeed did with Child support money ( I'm sure your praise for him for this was registered on the thread Blandy sent to internet heaven ) Incidentally in labour 2015 election manifesto they pledged to remove the winter heating allowance completely , partly it seems in an attempt to convince voters it could be trusted to manage the public finances ... so that's votes before lives ... remind us again who the nasty party are ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 I'm fairly apathetic ... none of these issues have effected me Am I concerned about the plight of the NHS ... not overlydo I care if someone gets a contract because they happened to know the right person .. not reallydo I care about the bus service in my area , not reallyIt could be argued that I should care about these issues , it could be argued I'm bad and selfish Europe .... without doubt we'd be better off out I don't careI'm going to take to telling everyone they are evil Yeah, I've taken this data in a completely fair and neutral way, run it through my patented Vote o matic 200 GX which tells you who you should be voting for.It thinks: probably tory? Saved me the trouble that Mr Crisps. I really don't have much time for the 'I'm OK Jack/I'm comfortable, nothing else really matters' brigade. But that is one of the main reasons, if not THE main reasons, the evil ones get into power. That's a tad unfair .. I could have lied and pretended I was sheltering 4 Syrians in my spare bedroom whilst weeping about those poor poor over worked nurses but I gave an honest view ....it really isn't " I'm OK Jack " .... but tell , what have you done lately out of interest , how many marches have you been on , how many Syrians are living in your house ?Honestly, I don't do as much as I could or should. But I care about all of those issues above that you don't seem to, and I donate to the Green Party, which is the party most closely aligned to my own beliefs, conscience, and ideology. Plus I live in a (not massive) 2 bedroom house, with a wife and daughter, so trying to house fugees would be quite problematic. I hear there are quite a few rooms unoccupied at Bucks pal though .... I would happily vote for a party that intended to increase direct tataxtion to pay for things like the NHS, public services, and helping those less fortunate than myself, including fugees. Presently, that would either be the Greens, or a Corbyn reformed Labour Party. Too many Blairites still in there though, so the Greens it is.Jon, my only problem with what you wrote is "im ok jack/im comfortable nothing else matters brigade" your basically generalising a whole host of people without even knowing their circumstances. How do you know there are people who voted tory but are in the same position or worse off than you? You don't. I think a majority of people when they vote they look ats what is best for them and their family. Might be selfish perhaps, but i don't think its wrong either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 your mates reaction wasn't the same as mine , I've never applauded any loss of life or thought **** them ... those events are tragic and sad but wasn't really the direct issue I was talking about and I'm not sure the comparison is valid ... I'm not saying you're like him, Tone. Just making the point that some have less compassion than others.I think that if you're in government, supposedly looking out for the interests of the many, an inclusive empathy is a quality that's desirable.This lot seem to want to cut many in our society adrift.Once the deluge of "compassion" was finished on Twitter , what exactly was the outcome ? I'm not even sure the refugees even make the news nowadays ..have they all gone home or drowned ....oh no they are still there Your friend was crude but end of the day he probably did as much about it as you did or the next person ,or the next person *Meanwhile I was involved in a fund raiser for Syrian children that raised a LOT of money , I did something , I didn't lecture people on twitter or post kind words on Facebook in an attempt to show everyone how compassionate I was * * I'm talking generically here , don't think this is aimed at you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 see this is part of the problem ..it's every pensioner that gets the winter allowance , millionaire or not .. Yer retired honest hard working man retired in Thailand gets it even though he doesn't need it or deserve it anymore than the millionaire pensioner living in Switzerland or England for that matter .... I'm guessing the individual can refuse it or give it back if they are so inclined , no doubt the working man as he probably voted labour all his life (before defecting to the BNP ) in Thailand sent his back or donated it to an orphanage whilst millionaire man spent on a bath of champagne in your book though but regardless , that was a policy that a Labour government introduced in 97 / 98 ? hardly a stick to beat Osborne with ... How much would it cost to means test every person for the heating allowance would be the question your should be asking and could Osborne implement this , as he indeed did with Child support money ( I'm sure your praise for him for this was registered on the thread Blandy sent to internet heaven ) Incidentally in labour 2015 election manifesto they pledged to remove the winter heating allowance completely , partly it seems in an attempt to convince voters it could be trusted to manage the public finances ... so that's votes before lives ... remind us again who the nasty party are ? I don't think you can blame 1997 Labour for a current tax can you? But again, perhaps I need it as a sig at the bottom, I don't vote Labour anyway and see only a little difference between them. If it is a wrong tax, or crudely enforced I'd have thought Georgie would have changed it or scrapped it? They've managed that for tax credits - which was my point. I don't have anything specific against people in Switzerland or Thailand that get my tax shipped out as benefits. But I'd have thought Cameron and Osbourne would want to turn off that tap before they start upping the pressure on people in this country, with a job, earning less than £10,000 p.a.. Do you not agree with that? As for the Labour 2015 election manifesto, I wouldn't wipe my morally superior arse with it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Your friend was crude but end of the day he probably did as much about it as you did or the next person ,or the next person *Getting more involved with stuff these days.Within in the last 12 months I've been marching and questioned MPs and MEPs directly, rather than through Change, Sum of Us, 38 Degrees etc - Whom I generally think do good work.Really I'd prefer not to do any of it, my interests don't include politics, but look what happens if you leave politicians to their own devices. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 see this is part of the problem ..it's every pensioner that gets the winter allowance , millionaire or not .. Yer retired honest hard working man retired in Thailand gets it even though he doesn't need it or deserve it anymore than the millionaire pensioner living in Switzerland or England for that matter .... I'm guessing the individual can refuse it or give it back if they are so inclined , no doubt the working man as he probably voted labour all his life (before defecting to the BNP ) in Thailand sent his back or donated it to an orphanage whilst millionaire man spent on a bath of champagne in your book though but regardless , that was a policy that a Labour government introduced in 97 / 98 ? hardly a stick to beat Osborne with ... How much would it cost to means test every person for the heating allowance would be the question your should be asking and could Osborne implement this , as he indeed did with Child support money ( I'm sure your praise for him for this was registered on the thread Blandy sent to internet heaven ) Incidentally in labour 2015 election manifesto they pledged to remove the winter heating allowance completely , partly it seems in an attempt to convince voters it could be trusted to manage the public finances ... so that's votes before lives ... remind us again who the nasty party are ? I don't think you can blame 1997 Labour for a current tax can you? But again, perhaps I need it as a sig at the bottom, I don't vote Labour anyway and see only a little difference between them. If it is a wrong tax, or crudely enforced I'd have thought Georgie would have changed it or scrapped it? They've managed that for tax credits - which was my point. I don't have anything specific against people in Switzerland or Thailand that get my tax shipped out as benefits. But I'd have thought Cameron and Osbourne would want to turn off that tap before they start upping the pressure on people in this country, with a job, earning less than £10,000 p.a.. Do you not agree with that? As for the Labour 2015 election manifesto, I wouldn't wipe my morally superior arse with it. I don't vote Tory but that doesn't appear to stop me being a morally corrupt baby eater either ... You lot (disclaimer, of impartial non labour supporters ) still harp on blaming Thatcher for everything so I think you are being rather hypercritical here to suggest that an ill thought out policy that hasn't been redressed as a high priority under this government makes Osborne the anti Christ .... As I said they went after Child benefit and robbed from the medium to give to the poor (and **** it up in the how ) maybe the complications of means testing the winter fuel just make it unviable ? You got caught out going for a nice millionaire sound bite and got called out on it ..fess up and stop twisting and turning like a twisty turny thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Again you are kind of missing the point - to a point where I now wonder if it's deliberate to see if I go pop. Why would changing a tax system to the detriment of the poorest workers in society be a higher priority than other taxes that benefit people that are either rich, or don't even live here, or both?*Seriously, that's weird isn't it? As a point, under my benevolent dictatorship, I would remove winter heating allowance from people of any income that weren't actually in the UK. I would remove winter heating allowance from all millionaires, regardless of their location. If this cost more money than it saved, I'd up the tax on something posh people buy until the cost was covered. Swans maybe, or pigs' heads, or holiday homes in Rock.*my own personal experience: due to the way I work / get income, a small unnoticed change in the last budget means that my car / travel tax and expense is no longer calculated in the same way. To cut some very dry accounting short, I'm now better off by a three figure sum every month. Why do that? Where was the clamour for that terrible injustice on people that travel around with their job ever championed? Personally, I shall obviously now spend my extra money on some very good things that interest me. But perhaps, just perhaps, if the government had kept it, then people that earn £8,000 p.a. wouldn't be facing a real drop in their earnings.Cruel for the sake of being cruel, wrapped up and sold as financial necessity. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 21, 2015 Author Moderator Share Posted October 21, 2015 see this is part of the problem ..it's every pensioner that gets the winter allowance , millionaire or not .. that was a policy that a Labour government introduced in 97 / 98 ? hardly a stick to beat Osborne with ...Incidentally in labour 2015 election manifesto they pledged to remove the winter heating allowance completely , partly it seems in an attempt to convince voters it could be trusted to manage the public finances ... so that's votes before lives ... remind us again who the nasty party are ?The problem here is that when Gideon and Pigface porker were trying to get elected, they promised not to cut pensioner benefits. They like pensioners as more of them vote and more of them vote tory. If you follow the tory narrative that "we're broke" and so need to cut benefit spending, the logical thing to do would be as you say, to do it on the basis of need. But what they've done is to do it on the basis of who is unlikely to vote tory anyway, and cut their benefits. So poor people, maybe disabled people, people in low wage jobs, people in reciept of housing benefit - take the money off them. Pensioners, however well off and wherever they live, no don't touch them.And they absolutely know for a fact that these latest benefit cuts will really hurt people, yet they are doing it anyway, with "delight" because...well because they can. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Again you are kind of missing the point - to a point where I now wonder if it's deliberate to see if I go pop. Why would changing a tax system to the detriment of the poorest workers in society be a higher priority than other taxes that benefit people that are either rich, or don't even live here, or both?*Seriously, that's weird isn't it? As a point, under my benevolent dictatorship, I would remove winter heating allowance from people of any income that weren't actually in the UK. I would remove winter heating allowance from all millionaires, regardless of their location. If this cost more money than it saved, I'd up the tax on something posh people buy until the cost was covered. Swans maybe, or pigs' heads, or holiday homes in Rock.*my own personal experience: due to the way I work / get income, a small unnoticed change in the last budget means that my car / travel tax and expense is no longer calculated in the same way. To cut some very dry accounting short, I'm now better off by a three figure sum every month. Why do that? Where was the clamour for that terrible injustice on people that travel around with their job ever championed? Personally, I shall obviously now spend my extra money on some very good things that interest me. But perhaps, just perhaps, if the government had kept it, then people that earn £8,000 p.a. wouldn't be facing a real drop in their earnings.Cruel for the sake of being cruel, wrapped up and sold as financial necessity. That's fine ... but your example didn't say that , your example specifically only mentioned millionaires (in Switzerland) had you posted this current revision we wouldn't be having this discussion (I'm not missing any point you went for a soundbite so don't blame me ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 see this is part of the problem ..it's every pensioner that gets the winter allowance , millionaire or not .. that was a policy that a Labour government introduced in 97 / 98 ? hardly a stick to beat Osborne with ...Incidentally in labour 2015 election manifesto they pledged to remove the winter heating allowance completely , partly it seems in an attempt to convince voters it could be trusted to manage the public finances ... so that's votes before lives ... remind us again who the nasty party are ?The problem here is that when Gideon and Pigface porker were trying to get elected, they promised not to cut pensioner benefits. They like pensioners as more of them vote and more of them vote tory. If you follow the tory narrative that "we're broke" and so need to cut benefit spending, the logical thing to do would be as you say, to do it on the basis of need. But what they've done is to do it on the basis of who is unlikely to vote tory anyway, and cut their benefits. So poor people, maybe disabled people, people in low wage jobs, people in reciept of housing benefit - take the money off them. Pensioners, however well off and wherever they live, no don't touch them.And they absolutely know for a fact that these latest benefit cuts will really hurt people, yet they are doing it anyway, with "delight" because...well because they can. do you think that is why Labour pledged to remove it altogether then , ideological grounds , you don't vote for us so **** you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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