The banker loving, baby-eating Tory party thread (regenerated)

[MakemineVanilla]

The sale of the UK to China is an utter disgrace.

It's Cameron and Osbrone's disgrace currently but whoever is responsible is an utter piece of shit.

It's bad enough to be involved with Saudi; to be involved with China (and blowing them at every opportunity) is shoddy.

Remember when we used to put sanctions on countries who violated human rights?

British plod raided the home of one of the Chinese protesters - so it looks like we are importing Chinese human rights, along with the rest of their stuff. 

But most people would probably agree that better a police state, than someone should be deprived of an iPhone.

[blandy]

to be involved with China (and blowing them at every opportunity) is shoddy.

British plod raided the home of one of the Chinese protesters - so it looks like we are importing Chinese human rights,

That's almost the most worrying angle from the whole sorry business. It looks (at face value) like the British forces of Law and Order have been seconded by the tories to work for the Chinese state to harrass/suppress a critic of the Chinese leadership. It's beyond comprehension.

Edited October 23, 2015 by blandy

[tonyh29]

One of the men had breached a secure area

The photos appear to show him inside a cordoned off area  .... you could question how big a security risk he was and that he should have been ejected from the area rather than arrested  , but maybe it would have been far better to let him have his protest and get within a few feet of a world leader , we all know that activists are peace loving people and no threat to anyone .

Had he been with the other protesters outside the security area  , would he have still been arrested ?

 

 

 

[tonyh29]

 

Remember when we used to put sanctions on selective countries who violated human rights?

 

Fixed  ... it just depended on who those humans were rather than any real moral conviction

[tonyh29]

I don't believe anybody purposefully goes out to try and victimise people.

It's neglect of people not in their thoughts, not active hatred.

I'd only be wasting my time wouldn't I .....

[chrisp65]

Trouble is Tony, with most of the stuff in politics, it's your hot air opinion versus my hot air opinion. It's only chatter and good fun too.

The difference with this one, without being overly melodramatic, I lived through it and experienced it first hand in a town dependent upon coal, dock trade and heavy industry.

I am not a fan.

 

 

 

[bickster]

Trouble is Tony, with most of the stuff in politics, it's your hot air opinion versus my hot air opinion. It's only chatter and good fun too.

The difference with this one, without being overly melodramatic, I lived through it and experienced it first hand in a town dependent upon coal, dock trade and heavy industry.

I am not a fan.

 

 

 

Yep and it depresses me to this very day, every time I visit South Wales. The valleys are still completely f**ked

[tonyh29]

Trouble is Tony, with most of the stuff in politics, it's your hot air opinion versus my hot air opinion. It's only chatter and good fun too.

The difference with this one, without being overly melodramatic, I lived through it and experienced it first hand in a town dependent upon coal, dock trade and heavy industry.

I am not a fan.

 

 

 

don't you think it would have happened without Thatcher anyway ?

Tthis is the bit I struggle with , this it was vindictive and personal line that gets trotted out  ... Wilson shut mines , nobody ever danced on his grave  ... the closures were almost inevitable , as I read it in some book ( yeah it could be biased , but then  who isn't in this dispute ) Thatcher agreed to 95% of Scargils  demands , almost unprecedented , generous settlements had been offered  ... Scargil had won ... but he wanted 100% of his demands and clawed defeat from victory  ... He probably did as much damage to Wales as Thatcher ?   what street parties are being planned for his demise ?

 

 

[MakemineVanilla]

Trouble is Tony, with most of the stuff in politics, it's your hot air opinion versus my hot air opinion. It's only chatter and good fun too.

The difference with this one, without being overly melodramatic, I lived through it and experienced it first hand in a town dependent upon coal, dock trade and heavy industry.

I am not a fan.

 

 

 

I would say that someone who even gets suspicious when they get a tax-break, has lost faith in government. 

[bickster]

Trouble is Tony, with most of the stuff in politics, it's your hot air opinion versus my hot air opinion. It's only chatter and good fun too.

The difference with this one, without being overly melodramatic, I lived through it and experienced it first hand in a town dependent upon coal, dock trade and heavy industry.

I am not a fan.

 

 

 

don't you think it would have happened without Thatcher anyway ?

Tthis is the bit I struggle with , this it was vindictive and personal line that gets trotted out  ... Wilson shut mines , nobody ever danced on his grave  ... the closures were almost inevitable , as I read it in some book ( yeah it could be biased , but then  who isn't in this dispute ) Thatcher agreed to 95% of Scargils  demands , almost unprecedented , generous settlements had been offered  ... Scargil had won ... but he wanted 100% of his demands and clawed defeat from victory  ... He probably did as much damage to Wales as Thatcher ?   what street parties are being planned for his demise ?

 

 

This is the bit I struggle with, you actually believe that nonsense. Closing exhausted mines is entirely different to closing mines with an exploitable resource  still in the ground. No one had an argument that some of the mines should close, they were done, nowt left in them. However closing mines with a valuable finite resource left in them is criminal. Once the pumps are switched off they flood and are as good as shut forever. Most of the mines Thatcher shut were in the latter category. My granddads pit, the only one left in South Wales after the closures only became exhausted two years ago. It was personal and vindictive and part of the Witches strategy to break the unions. Don't know what book you read but I think it was sprinkled with fairy dust

[lapal_fan]

fwiw I think the mine closures weren't the worst idea *for the country*.  For the communities which relied on them, yea, it's absolutely earth shattering and bad.  But, those resources will still be there in the future when something like Russia/Saudi/US goes berserk and we need to "fend for ourselves". 

I think part of the reason the infrastructure in this country is so dire is because as a nation, we don't have adaptability & the due to our "democracy" the government can't do a 3 gorges dam on us.

My nan and grandad didn't have much choice when over the road from them, the acres of green fields were turned into Junction 3 of the M5.  Likewise whenever cars were invented, canals were introduce, shit had to change for the future. 

All of a sudden nothing can happen in case someone has to move or a community dies.

 

[chrisp65]

 

I would say that someone who even gets suspicious when they get a tax-break, has lost faith in government. 

Out of interest, do you genuinely not see why I would question some getting tax breaks whilst others lower down the financial well being scale are getting penalised?

A real question. If you really don't see it I'll have another go at getting my hazy reasoning through beyond my often garbled wenglish.

 

[chrisp65]

fwiw I think the mine closures weren't the worst idea *for the country*.  For the communities which relied on them, yea, it's absolutely earth shattering and bad.  But, those resources will still be there in the future when something like Russia/Saudi/US goes berserk and we need to "fend for ourselves". 

I think part of the reason the infrastructure in this country is so dire is because as a nation, we don't have adaptability & the due to our "democracy" the government can't do a 3 gorges dam on us.

My nan and grandad didn't have much choice when over the road from them, the acres of green fields were turned into Junction 3 of the M5.  Likewise whenever cars were invented, canals were introduce, shit had to change for the future. 

All of a sudden nothing can happen in case someone has to move or a community dies.

 

You might want to google Capel Celyn.

[tonyh29]

Trouble is Tony, with most of the stuff in politics, it's your hot air opinion versus my hot air opinion. It's only chatter and good fun too.

The difference with this one, without being overly melodramatic, I lived through it and experienced it first hand in a town dependent upon coal, dock trade and heavy industry.

I am not a fan.

 

 

 

don't you think it would have happened without Thatcher anyway ?

Tthis is the bit I struggle with , this it was vindictive and personal line that gets trotted out  ... Wilson shut mines , nobody ever danced on his grave  ... the closures were almost inevitable , as I read it in some book ( yeah it could be biased , but then  who isn't in this dispute ) Thatcher agreed to 95% of Scargils  demands , almost unprecedented , generous settlements had been offered  ... Scargil had won ... but he wanted 100% of his demands and clawed defeat from victory  ... He probably did as much damage to Wales as Thatcher ?   what street parties are being planned for his demise ?

 

 

This is the bit I struggle with, you actually believe that nonsense. Closing exhausted mines is entirely different to closing mines with an exploitable resource  still in the ground. No one had an argument that some of the mines should close, they were done, nowt left in them. However closing mines with a valuable finite resource left in them is criminal. Once the pumps are switched off they flood and are as good as shut forever. Most of the mines Thatcher shut were in the latter category. My granddads pit, the only one left in South Wales after the closures only became exhausted two years ago. It was personal and vindictive and part of the Witches strategy to break the unions. Don't know what book you read but I think it was sprinkled with fairy dust

[lapal_fan]

fwiw I think the mine closures weren't the worst idea *for the country*.  For the communities which relied on them, yea, it's absolutely earth shattering and bad.  But, those resources will still be there in the future when something like Russia/Saudi/US goes berserk and we need to "fend for ourselves". 

I think part of the reason the infrastructure in this country is so dire is because as a nation, we don't have adaptability & the due to our "democracy" the government can't do a 3 gorges dam on us.

My nan and grandad didn't have much choice when over the road from them, the acres of green fields were turned into Junction 3 of the M5.  Likewise whenever cars were invented, canals were introduce, shit had to change for the future. 

All of a sudden nothing can happen in case someone has to move or a community dies.

 

 

You might want to google Capel Celyn.

Ok, so for the sake of let's say >500k peoples infrastructure, 48 people "lost" (were re-homed) after an 8 year appeal.  Sad? yes, definitely, those 48 homes had their own histories etc.  But it's slightly different to 1.24 million people, 13 cities, 140 towns and 1350 villages, in the 3 Gorges damn example, no?

We've had this convo before where I said I'd begrudingly get rid of a hypothetical castle to build a new railway/motorway etc.

Stuff changes, a lot - if it didn't we'd still be living in the woods surrounded by thick Oak plagioclimatic vegetation, eating turnips..  Which means I wouldn't be able to go home and play Rocket League with Stevo,  Villarule & Stefan - do you really want to live in that world?

#LAPALFORCHANGE

[MakemineVanilla]

 

I would say that someone who even gets suspicious when they get a tax-break, has lost faith in government.  (joke)

 

Out of interest, do you genuinely not see why I would question some getting tax breaks whilst others lower down the financial well being scale are getting penalised?

A real question. If you really don't see it I'll have another go at getting my hazy reasoning through beyond my often garbled wenglish.

 

I can see your general principle in terms of progressive taxation but I thought offering yourself as an example didn't work for the reasons I gave.

Giving you more tax relief on the expenses you accrue because of your long commute seems both just and fair to me.

I don't really believe that the old 'from he according to his ability, to her according to her need' because I think that reward should be linked to effort, just as I mostly think that the very rich don't deserve their rewards because they are disproportionate to their efforts.

You paying more tax to support those who have chosen an easier life-style would seem unfair because your rewards come at a cost others would not contemplate.

Obviously if you think you were already over-rewarded for your efforts then a tax-break it would seem wrong and only you can decided that.

I tend to think not.

 

[chrisp65]

It's an interesting one. I only offered myself as an example to try and fend off accusations of jealousy. I wasn't grandstanding (much).

I would like more money, I'd like a Maserati. I've already made it clear in work I'm expecting a proper bonus at Christmas. Effort, fees earned, arses kissed. Whatever metric they use, I'm due the biggest bonus. I'm not shy in asking for reward. I can be a little bit alpha when it matters.

If Osbourne wants to promote, money for workers nothing for shirkers, that's one thing. I haven't heard him say that. I've heard him say we can't bail out the poor because we don't have any money. Well, that's patently not true is it. He's just given me a wadge.

I suspect that the Vote o matic GX 200 in conservative central office guessed I was a tory and that poor people largely aren't. No more complicated than that.

 

 

 

[MakemineVanilla]

It's an interesting one. I only offered myself as an example to try and fend off accusations of jealousy. I wasn't grandstanding (much).

I would like more money, I'd like a Maserati. I've already made it clear in work I'm expecting a proper bonus at Christmas. Effort, fees earned, arses kissed. Whatever metric they use, I'm due the biggest bonus. I'm not shy in asking for reward. I can be a little bit alpha when it matters.

If Osbourne wants to promote, money for workers nothing for shirkers, that's one thing. I haven't heard him say that. I've heard him say we can't bail out the poor because we don't have any money. Well, that's patently not true is it. He's just given me a wadge.

I suspect that the Vote o matic GX 200 in conservative central office guessed I was a tory and that poor people largely aren't. No more complicated than that.

 

 

 

I seem to remember Michael Corleone had a Maserati - everyone should have a role-model. 

[tonyh29]

I would like more money, I'd like a Maserati.

 

I always wanted a Maserati .. suddenly I've gone off them

[chrisp65]

I've only ever truly desired three or four cars in my life.

As a nipper, I couldn't wait to be able to drive so I could buy a Jensen Interceptor (little concept of insurance and maintenance budgets as an 11 year old).

In to my twenties I almost had a VW Karmann Ghia a couple of times and it never quite came off.

If I ever win the lottery that I don't do as it's for chavs, I shall immediately purchase a 60's / 70's east european spy film genre Mercedes saloon and a shiny new Maserati. One for the supermarket shopping trips, one for those european city breaks.