The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[darrenm]

16 minutes ago, blandy said:

So looking at what you APPG say - there's no evidence, because no one's looked at other parties in a such way to gather evidence, they say

I want to compare what's on sale at Lidl with what's on sale at Aldi.

Here's the list for LIDL,

there's no list for Aldi - no-one's looked at what they offer.

There's no reliable empirical evidence to say Lidl's inventory is any different to Aldi's.

I am certain that other parties also have a problem with discrimination - it might be less bad, it might be worse. What we do know is Labour has a problem.

"Labour stole a book - that's theft"

"But the other party stole books"

That's not a defence.

The point I was trying to make is that Keir Starmer himself (via the report he signed off) said that, in October 2016 at least, there's no evidence that antisemitism is any worse than any other party, despite appearances to the contrary.

Which to me, isn't a million miles away from 

“One antisemite is one too many, but the scale of the problem was also dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents inside and outside the party, as well as by much of the media. That combination hurt Jewish people and must never be repeated."

that he just suspended his predecessor for. Apparently 'interfering' in the disciplinary process which the report said not to do. While Tony Blair is still in the party.

He seems to have more positions than the Karma Sutra. Give me politicians with sticky principles over this flip flopping any day.

[blandy]

7 minutes ago, darrenm said:

The point I was trying to make is that Keir Starmer himself (via the report he signed off) said that, in October 2016 at least, there's no evidence that antisemitism is any worse than any other party, despite appearances to the contrary.

Which to me, isn't a million miles away from 

“One antisemite is one too many, but the scale of the problem was also dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents inside and outside the party, as well as by much of the media. That combination hurt Jewish people and must never be repeated."

that he just suspended his predecessor for. Apparently 'interfering' in the disciplinary process which the report said not to do. While Tony Blair is still in the party.

He seems to have more positions than the Karma Sutra. Give me politicians with sticky principles over this flip flopping any day.

Our brains must work differently Darren, because it's significantly different to me.

One is saying there is an absence of evidence about other parties (I've only read your quoted extract, not the full thing). The other is, on the day of publication of a damning report, the man responsible as (then) leader of the damned party saying "yeah, there is a problem, but it's all exaggerated" when the report (amongst other things) says "Jeremy Corbyn’s office involved itself in disciplinary cases that were deemed “politically sensitive” which was outside the Party’s formal complaints process, and so “was not a legitimate approach to determining complaints” - One of those complaints was about Jeremy Corbyn - his own office interfered "killed" a complaint about him, outside of process. He also disagreed with/disputed some of the EHRC report's conclusions. I mean (in my mind) it's just miles apart from what the APPG wrote.

The EHRC investigation scope did not permit them to decide on individual's actions, only "the party", but if it was the tories, and Johnson's office was found to have interfered in a complaint about Johnson, outside of formal process I reckon I'd be 1) entirely unsurprised and also 2) aghast. And then, if Johnson came out and said "it' all exaggerated..." I mean we'd be all over him. Like with that Cummins Berk.

[darrenm]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

And then, if Johnson came out and said "it' all exaggerated..." I mean we'd be all over him. Like with that Cummins Berk

That's absolutely correct. Although the Tory strategy seems to be to brazenly ignore everything and then the media won't keep going on about it. It seems to work much better than the Corbyn conscience driven 'I'm really sorry we failed but honestly, it's not as bad as the media made it out to be' accepting but trying to rationalise it. I've always wondered if it would have been better all round, including for the very real fears of Jewish people if Labour had completely ignored antisemitism like the Tories have done with islamaphobia. The media have essentially acted like a bully in all this - they saw a weakness and kept picking on it. The weakness in comparison to the Tories was to accept there was a problem. The Tories never gave the bullies anything to aim at so there was never a weakness displayed, which then stopped a whole community of being terrified that half a million party members were out to get them.

Most of that was just musing, by the way. It may not have any roots in reality.

[blandy]

4 minutes ago, darrenm said:

the Tory strategy seems to be to brazenly ignore everything and then the media won't keep going on about it. It seems to work much better than the Corbyn conscience driven 'I'm really sorry we failed but honestly, it's not as bad as the media made it out to be' accepting but trying to rationalise it. I've always wondered if it would have been better all round, including for the very real fears of Jewish people if Labour had completely ignored antisemitism like the Tories have done with islamaphobia.

I know just musing, but Christ no, on so many levels.

You're right about the tories, but for Labour which is/sells itself as anti-discriminatory, ignoring their problem would only lead to an explosion of it. I mean it's really simple, in principle, to me - AS, racism and so on are unacceptable. Tolerance of it is not an option. It absolutely would not have been "better all round, including for the very real fears of Jewish people if Labour had completely ignored antisemitism". People were being driven out, suffering stress, anxiety, fear, hurt and so on because of it. You can't ignore that. You can't ignore it.

I don't actually think you see your musing as what you feel - 'cus that's so obviously not you, and I take it in that spirit.

[HanoiVillan]

lol

 

[magnkarl]

14 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

lol

 

A quick scroll through the comments of that tweet shows how vile the Corbyn faction of Labour is. Full of "Fuelled by Israel", zionism comments and so on. Rayner is obviously not the smartest cookie in the jar - but the buck stops with the fact that Labours own Chakrabati report put into swing by JC has pretty much the same damning conclusions about Labour's dealing with AS that the EHRC report has. If JC and the rest of the gargoyles want to once more raise their heads above the parapet to once again downplay the problem it just shows that they've learnt nothing.

As @bickster has proved ample times, in particular Liverpools CLP's have a considerable presence of people who should have no place in the party. Why on earth does no one in JC's fan-group actively go out against he trolls and idiots up there? AS has no place in Labour. Full stop. It's not a matter of "It has no place in labour, but but, the tories, the media, the zionists, whatever.." It makes normal sensible people look quite flawed when they can't make that distinction, and it scares the groups who are fairly consistently targeted in the UK. (Guards at Synagogues, Jewish schools, outing of Jewish MP's etc). Jews that I know have seldom had people stand up for them except for the left in Western countries, now support from that part of our political spectrum is deafeningly silent. 

[darrenm]

This was a really good speech by Barnaby Raine at the Corbyn solidarity rally. Published by Rivkah Brown in Vashti Media, it looks like left wing Jews are having to make their own media in order to get their voices heard.

https://vashtimedia.com/2020/10/31/i-stand-with-jeremy-corbyn/

Quote

To think that racism is alien to these shores is to know nothing of Britain; and to say that the Labour Party has always been antiracist is to insult every asylum-seeking child pushed to destitution by the calculated decisions the Blair government took to appease the rightwing press, to prove Labour could be as tough on the poor and the foreign as their opponents. My first political activity was volunteering at my synagogue’s drop-in centre for refugees made homeless by a British Labour government.

 

[blandy]

"It's completely unacceptable not to understand the hurt"

Spot on, IMO.

-----

Everyone agrees that the number of instances is small compared to the number of members etc. Though small is subjective. If they've got, now around 400,000 members or whatever it is, 1% is "small" but it's still (in this example) 4000 instances. or if it's half a percent, then 1000 instances/people carrying out alleged AS abuse and attacks. Which appears to be/have been somewhere in the ball park, perhaps?

I watched that interview in full, and after it, felt like someone I'd barely heard of/from is actually a pretty decent performer for a politician, coming across as listening to the questions and answering them.

[Xann]

A big reality bomb has gone off, and people are still arguing about matters that have pretty much become small peanuts vs the likely impending doom of the ecosystems of the planet, driven by Capitalism.

Are you fooling yourselves?

Plenty more reality bombs to come.

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Xann

[HanoiVillan]

4 hours ago, blandy said:

I watched that interview in full, and after it, felt like someone I'd barely heard of/from is actually a pretty decent performer for a politician, coming across as listening to the questions and answering them.

Well, the Campaign Against Antisemitism have launched an official complaint against her which is due to be investigated, so don't get too attached to her.

[blandy]

4 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Well, the Campaign Against Antisemitism have launched an official complaint against her which is due to be investigated, so don't get too attached to her.

I won’t.

[snowychap]

Corbyn suspension lifted.

[Davkaus]

His statement this morning was a bit of a climbdown from his previous one. I'm glad to see him accept the finding of the report, and hope that we can look forward to him quietly sitting on the backbenches as an irrelevance. Perhaps someone could hold down his feet so he stops putting them into his mouth,

[Chindie]

[bickster]

I'm confused, when did campaigning for the Palestinian cause become a problem? Or is there something I'm missing in the photo?
Even LFI support a 2 state solution but Starmer isn't a member. Starmer is a member of Labour Friends of Palestine and the Middle East though, along with St Jeremy

See campaigning for Palestine doesn't make you automatically AS. Saying AS things makes you AS

[snowychap]

13 hours ago, Davkaus said:

him quietly sitting on the backbenches

He never sat quietly on the backbenches.

[blandy]

They’re still out there, all the whoppers, delightfully sharing their anti semitism and bile. Who’d ever join that sort of Corbynite sect?

 

[HanoiVillan]

8 minutes ago, blandy said:

They’re still out there, all the whoppers, delightfully sharing their anti semitism and bile. Who’d ever join that sort of Corbynite sect?

 

Certainly looks bad! Since the vast majority of those comments appear to have been posted under a person's (presumably real) name, it seems fairly likely that most will not be members of the Labour party (though I'm sure there are some members stupid enough to post something like that under their own names).

What to do with racist comments from members of the public on party associated social media pages seems like an interesting question, albeit one that few people are presumably interested in discussing in good faith.

[ml1dch]

17 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

What to do with racist comments from members of the public on party associated social media pages seems like an interesting question, albeit one that few people are presumably interested in discussing in good faith.

What makes you say that?

[HanoiVillan]

7 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

What makes you say that?

Because the whole discussion has been subsumed in a factional battle for years, and it's only getting worse.