The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[Demitri_C]

3 hours ago, avfcDJ said:

Labour will continue to struggle whilst the press is anti Labour 

The mirror is anti-tory

[Jareth]

2 hours ago, darrenm said:

I actually thought that would be the case

Agreed - Starmer could have had a chance had he not distanced himself as far away as possible from anything attributable to Jezza - as is the case now sadly. He's gutted Labour of what it was and then stuffed it full of Jess Phillips. 

[bickster]

17 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Agreed - Starmer could have had a chance had he not distanced himself as far away as possible from anything attributable to Jezza - as is the case now sadly. He's gutted Labour of what it was and then stuffed it full of Jess Phillips. 

You realise Jess Phillips was in the Labour Party long before the Johnny Come Latelys who've joined and left? Membership has fallen not increased so Starmer has hadly stuffed the Labour Party with anyone. The non-ultra-left of the party haven't had a sudden influx, they were there all along

[Jareth]

11 minutes ago, bickster said:

You realise Jess Phillips was in the Labour Party long before the Johnny Come Latelys who've joined and left? Membership has fallen not increased so Starmer has hadly stuffed the Labour Party with anyone. The non-ultra-left of the party haven't had a sudden influx, they were there all along

Jeez so literal! Jess Phillips = bullsh*t mouthy mp who when push came to shove was more comfortable slating her leader than presenting a coherent leadership campaign herself - now this type of MP is thriving under Starmer - it ain't a great team. Also 'you realise' how long Jezza was in Labour before the likes of JP? He was busy defending Jews in North London long before JP turned up and accused him of antisemitism. 

[bickster]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

Jeez so literal! Jess Phillips = bullsh*t mouthy mp who when push came to shove was more comfortable slating her leader than presenting a coherent leadership campaign herself - now this type of MP is thriving under Starmer - it ain't a great team. Also 'you realise' how long Jezza was in Labour before the likes of JP? He was busy defending Jews in North London long before JP turned up and accused him of antisemitism. 

You know one of them is half the age of the other one?

Also one of them resigned from the Labour Party during the Blair years because... Blair

[blandy]

3 hours ago, darrenm said:

My take as a neutral observer these days:

You can't win from the centre since the advent of social media, the 247 news cycle and the desperate need of people to be entertained to stave off the boredom.

Trying to do sensible politics no longer works. Blair didn't have Facebook, Twitter and Instagram around. He didn't have people watching parliament live cheering on votes like it's a football match.

You've got to be populist. Brexit 2016, Trump 2016, Corbyn 2017 (yes I know), Johnson 2019, all populist.

For Starmer to win in 2024 or whenever, he'd need:

The left on side. That involves talking up Corbyn (or at least his policies) and reinstating him.

Some really show stopping policies like the stuff of 2019 minus a couple that could be made fun of.

The BBC not being the Tory shield.

Murdoch and other billionaire press barons not being the Tory propaganda.

If anyone can see the above happening then great, the Tories are out in 3 years.

I have a completely different neutral take (I hate the tories, admittedly, but I'm not really pro or anti Labour as a political party).

I think you can only win from the centre(ish). I think the UK and England in particular is a fairly central-ish nation. Brexit was a once in a lifetime sort of anomalous issue, that screwed around with left and right.

Labour's had, what 6 PMs in all it's history? and in most people's memory Blair, Wilson, Callahan, Brown - 4 (one of whom wasn't elected, he just got the job by default. The tories have had elected more than that 4 in the past few years.

You mentioned Biden - he got in (with with a record vote) from a non-scare the horses position and is doing much more, already, than people thought he would. He'll never be Bernie Sanders left, but he'll get many lefty things done. To get anything done you have to get elected. It shouldn't need stating, but it does. Get in, then do stuff. Don't scare half the electorate (or more) before an election, because you will not get in. To get in Labour has to persuade people who voted for other parties to vote for them. That means soft Tories, Lib Dems, Greens, SNPs etc as well as Corbynite types.

The real world does not look like Twitter. Twitter is a madhouse, politically. It's more pernicious than the right wing press, though in a different way. It amplifies things and brings out ever more extreme positions in people. And the bloody media, the lazy sods, use twitter storms and rows to fill their telly and papers and airwaves with guff.

The BBC isn't a tory shield as an entity. It's an establishment shield. Yes the tories (as Labour did when in power) pressure it and manage to eek a bit of favour, perhaps, at times. Labour knows this.

I think Labour needs fewer policies than last time - it tried to have a view and position on anything and everything and to be radical on all that. Which might please the converted, but most folk thought it was a hotchpotch of "they won't do all that" stuff, sort of thrown together. I think they need to identify things that are clearly wrong, that people know are clearly wrong and hammer that home over and over again. It works. Nurses pay, PPE scandals, Cronyism, the NHS, Bosses pay and repeat the mantra  at every opportunity in simple terms. That's the lesson from Brexit, from recent elections. "Take back control" "get Brexit done", "Stay home protect the NHS" etc. - but do it around either Labour things (NHS), Tory bad things, or new things   - past ideas have been National Minimum Wage, Independent bank of England and so on. Labour used to campaign on Old Age Pensions. Zero hours contracts is a modern kind of equivalent, and state pensions still need sorting - they're pitifully low. Identify problems offer targeted solutions, not broad brush things. And make it credible. And hammer Johnsons dishonesty and crooked tory cronyism ruthlessly and in the context of how Labour isn't like them. And hope no more Liverpool situations pop up.

Like I've said before, when the pandemic is done (if it ever is) that's when Starmer will get more attention, and it's also where he has the opportunity to put stuff into the public eye. Just now, all anyone talks about is Vaccines, Lockdowns, Virus, Can I go on Holiday, face masks, and going to the pub and sport and stuff. Nothing else from anyone gets much attention at all. Don't fret about that, Labour people. Work out your policies and be ready to move once the situation is settled down a bit.

[markavfc40]

This thread is probably a great example of why the Tories more often than not get into power. Whilst they have infighting, none more so than over Europe, when push comes to shove they are power hungry and will unite to do and say whatever it takes to get in to and stay in power.

Labour just don't seem to have that in them do they. Those on the left deciding to do one under Blair, those on the right either leaving the party under Corbyn or stabbing him in the back whenever the chance arose. 

I'm of the opinion that any form of Labour is better than a Tory government. Present me with an at best centre left Labour party, the Blair years, and I'll vote for it, present me with a left wing Corbyn Labour and I'll vote for it. Tell me I need to vote Lib Dem/Green/ The Raving Looney party to ensure the Tory party don't win in the constituency I live in then I'll do it.

I think the sooner more people think like me the sooner we'll see the back of the Tories. If those on the left of the party are waiting for enough people in the country to vote in a left wing/socialist government then they are going to be waiting a hell of a long time. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by markavfc40

[Jareth]

33 minutes ago, bickster said:

You know one of them is half the age of the other one?

Also one of them resigned from the Labour Party during the Blair years because... Blair

Hmm, took a stand against Blair for what reason was it again? Vs taking a stand against Corbyn for faux antisemitism balls? Come on. 

[bickster]

Just now, Jareth said:

for faux antisemitism balls?

That debate has been done to death and is not worth going over yet again

But I forgot to mention

41 minutes ago, Jareth said:

mouthy

That really isn't a good look, calling a woman mouthy for actually standing up and having an opinion, is a bit yer know.... sexist maybe?

[Jareth]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

That debate has been done to death and is not worth going over yet again

But I forgot to mention

That really isn't a good look, calling a woman mouthy for actually standing up and having an opinion, is a bit yer know.... sexist maybe?

Have you ever listened to her? "I'd stab him in the front" - etc

Edited April 16, 2021 by Jareth

[bickster]

16 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

This thread is probably a great example of why the Tories more often than not get into power. Whilst they have infighting, none more so than over Europe, when push comes to shove they are power hungry and will unite to do and say whatever it takes to get in to and stay in power.

Labour just don't seem to have that in them do they. Those on the left deciding to do one under Blair, those on the right either leaving the party under Corbyn or stabbing him in the back whenever the chance arose. 

I'm of the opinion that any form of Labour is better than a Tory government. Present me with an at best centre left Labour party, the Blair years, and I'll vote for it, present me with a left wing Corbyn Labour and I'll vote for it. Tell me I need to vote Lib Dem/Green/ The Raving Looney party to ensure the Tory party don't win in the constituency I live in then I'll do it.

I think the sooner more people think like me the sooner we'll see the back of the Tories. If those on the left of the party are waiting for enough people in the country to vote in a left wing/socialist government then they are going to be waiting a hell of a long time. 

Not going to change though is it, left wing politics have been like that since Marx and Engels. There will always be an element of the left that prefers tofight othert people on the left than you know, the peoples enemy

 

[bickster]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

Have you ever listened to her? "I'd stab him in the front" - etc

I just think you need to find some more appropriate adjectives

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

I just think you need to find some more appropriate adjectives

Says the bloke who called all those angered by the suppression of the Forde report idiots - despite the fact every single one was BAME. Then doubled down. But this is Labour these days - home to flag shagging older generations. It's absolute madness, but with 29% of the vote - best of luck. 

[Davkaus]

29 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

This thread is probably a great example of why the Tories more often than not get into power. Whilst they have infighting, none more so than over Europe, when push comes to shove they are power hungry and will unite to do and say whatever it takes to get in to and stay in power.

Labour just don't seem to have that in them do they. Those on the left deciding to do one under Blair, those on the right either leaving the party under Corbyn or stabbing him in the back whenever the chance arose. 

I'm of the opinion that any form of Labour is better than a Tory government. Present me with an at best centre left Labour party, the Blair years, and I'll vote for it, present me with a left wing Corbyn Labour and I'll vote for it. Tell me I need to vote Lib Dem/Green/ The Raving Looney party to ensure the Tory party don't win in the constituency I live in then I'll do it.

I think the sooner more people think like me the sooner we'll see the back of the Tories. If those on the left of the party are waiting for enough people in the country to vote in a left wing/socialist government then they are going to be waiting a hell of a long time. 

The Blair years were probably the best in my lifetime in terms of domestic policy, but centre left? We've not had a government left of centre in about 50 years.

I'll no longer vote "anyone but Tory". I'd rather waste my vote onthe party I most closely align with then a red tory, and I've seen nothing from Starmer to win me back.

"Not as big a nonce as Prince Andrew", "not as much of a racist as Hitler" shouldn't be a selling point. **** the tories, red and blue.

[El Zen]

11 minutes ago, bickster said:

There will always be an element of the left that prefers tofight othert people on the left than you know, the peoples enemy

 

Very true, and it’s a pain in the arse in local party meetings on Zoom, I can tell you

[bickster]

3 minutes ago, El Zen said:

Very true, and it’s a pain in the arse in local party meetings on Zoom, I can tell you

Its actually why I left the Labour Party in my early 20s

[bickster]

16 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Says the bloke who called all those angered by the suppression of the Forde report idiots - despite the fact every single one was BAME. Then doubled down. But this is Labour these days - home to flag shagging older generations. It's absolute madness, but with 29% of the vote - best of luck. 

I'm not in the Labour Party, rarely vote for Labour and certainly provide them with no funding. Party politics really isn't my thing. 

[darrenm]

58 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

This thread is probably a great example of why the Tories more often than not get into power. Whilst they have infighting, none more so than over Europe, when push comes to shove they are power hungry and will unite to do and say whatever it takes to get in to and stay in power.

Labour just don't seem to have that in them do they. Those on the left deciding to do one under Blair, those on the right either leaving the party under Corbyn or stabbing him in the back whenever the chance arose. 

I'm of the opinion that any form of Labour is better than a Tory government. Present me with an at best centre left Labour party, the Blair years, and I'll vote for it, present me with a left wing Corbyn Labour and I'll vote for it. Tell me I need to vote Lib Dem/Green/ The Raving Looney party to ensure the Tory party don't win in the constituency I live in then I'll do it.

I think the sooner more people think like me the sooner we'll see the back of the Tories. If those on the left of the party are waiting for enough people in the country to vote in a left wing/socialist government then they are going to be waiting a hell of a long time. 

You're quite right there's a lot of fighting and the whole people's front of judea stuff on the left because I like to think it's made up of people who actually want to change things for the better. The ethos of being Conservative is being conservative - keeping things as they are. The opposite of that is wanting change to improve. Meaning you're more of an activist and have ideas and opinions. The thing is, you can't blame people for this. You can make an observation like you are that these natural ways of thinking ensure that right wing governments will always be more effective at consolidating the vote, but it's not anyone's fault if a party doesn't appeal to them - it just doesn't appeal to them. Yes it's a shame that if people don't feel that the Labour Party is worthy of their vote even if they are closer than the Tories then it's more likely to let the Tories in but that's people's choice. It's their right and if the Labour Party have pretty much stuck 2 fingers up at them (what I feel they've done to me) it's my right to take the hump and vote/rejoin the Greens. 

[markavfc40]

1 hour ago, Davkaus said:

The Blair years were probably the best in my lifetime in terms of domestic policy, but centre left? We've not had a government left of centre in about 50 years.

I'll no longer vote "anyone but Tory". I'd rather waste my vote onthe party I most closely align with then a red tory, and I've seen nothing from Starmer to win me back.

"Not as big a nonce as Prince Andrew", "not as much of a racist as Hitler" shouldn't be a selling point. **** the tories, red and blue.

A Labour government under Blair was miles away from a Tory government under Cameron and a million miles away from the Tory government we have now. You might never get a left wing socialist back to our roots Labour government that is a billion miles from where we are now but surely one closer to the left, even if you still consider it to the right of centre, is better than the alternative we have lived through for the last 11 years.

I  think that a lot of people may think like you, which is really well intentioned, but off the back of that I have a horrible feeling I may never see anything other than a Tory government for the rest of my days and I am 47 and not planning on going anywhere soon. 

[Jareth]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

Party politics really isn't my thing.