mikeyp102 Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 5 hours ago, Michael118 said: It's hard to hold any player responsible when you know they would perform differently under the right conditions. There is absolutely no evidence to show that he would. The sign of a good player means that they adapt to the conditions around them and still shine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 1 hour ago, mikeyp102 said: There is absolutely no evidence to show that he would. The sign of a good player means that they adapt to the conditions around them and still shine. Presumably Benteke is shit, then? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gharperr Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 1 hour ago, mikeyp102 said: The sign of a good player means that they adapt to the conditions around them and still shine. sounds like a sign of a closish world class player than a good player. Can think of systems for a whole bunch of upper mid table players where they would struggle 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 10 hours ago, bobzy said: Er, no? His agent never at all said he'd refuse to play for us? The quote given is a translation from Spanish starting with "his intention is not to play in the Championship and to look for teams in the Premier League and La Liga" - not "he refuses to play for Aston Villa". Umm, doesn't one equal the other? Ok so we can argue about semantics all day long but as Aston Villa are in the Championship and Gil has 'no intention of playing in the Championship', according to his agent at least, it's not a massive leap to suggest that he engineered a move. I find the defence of these comments baffling to be honest. His agent clearly thought he is better than us, when the actual reality is he's probably not good enough for us. I put that up there with Bacuna's champions league comments, with the caveat they are from his agent. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 40 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: Umm, doesn't one equal the other? Ok so we can argue about semantics all day long but as Aston Villa are in the Championship and Gil has 'no intention of playing in the Championship', according to his agent at least, it's not a massive leap to suggest that he engineered a move. I find the defence of these comments baffling to be honest. His agent clearly thought he is better than us, when the actual reality is he's probably not good enough for us. I put that up there with Bacuna's champions league comments, with the caveat they are from his agent. They're clearly different, to me. One is saying he wishes to play at a higher level, another is a refusal to play for your club. Massively different. Bacuna's Champions League comments came after a journo asked him "would you return to Holland?" to which he responded that only PSV or Ajax would interest him as they play CL football regularly. The over-reaction from people to these comments is staggering. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 (edited) He has no intention of playing in the championship. I don't know how you interpret that differently. If I have no intention of going into work next week, there's not many ways to interpret that. As DDID said, he clearly engineered a move as quick as he could. Edited August 4, 2016 by DCJonah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 FFS another thread that goes round in circles. Ok you may think he's shit, that's your opinion, some people seem to have disliked him from day one for little reason I can see, fair enough if it's your life, but he doesn't pollute your weekends any more. Just leave this thread for the fans who want to follow how he's getting on. There's no need for the arguments any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: FFS anoter thread that goes round in circles. Ok you may think he's shit, that's your opinion, some people seem to have disliked him from day one for little reason I can see, fair enough if it's your life, but he doesn't pollute your weekends any more. Just leave this thread for the fans who want to follow how he's getting on. There's no need for the arguments any more. I doubt you could find anyone who disliked him from day one. His first few games were incredible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 27 minutes ago, bobzy said: They're clearly different, to me. One is saying he wishes to play at a higher level, another is a refusal to play for your club. Massively different. Bacuna's Champions League comments came after a journo asked him "would you return to Holland?" to which he responded that only PSV or Ajax would interest him as they play CL football regularly. The over-reaction from people to these comments is staggering. I humbly disagree, I think if those comments had come from a player you didn't rate as highly as you do Gil you would view them in a different light. They're actually somewhere in between your two suggestions. I don't *hate* Carles Gil nor do I think hes a particularly bad footballer. However it's clear to me he doesn't want to be here, which is his prerogative of course though I do resent him a little for that and I also don't think he's suited to the English game. So I am pleased he has left, albeit on loan for now. Re: Bacuna I probably shouldn't have bought it up but in comparing the two comments I am comparing their impact on my opinion of them as individuals. Bacuna's comments came at a very raw time and in isolation they mean little, but combined with his abject performances on the pitch they touched a nerve. As did Gil's agents comments, shortly after relegation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 (edited) I don't rate him particularly highly (let's not forget, this latest bunch of nonsense has come from me saying "good luck" to a player!) He's a decent footballer who can do better than he did at Aston Villa but always played (when called upon) with a smile and gave his all. Just can't see why people have a problem with wishing well on such a player and continually bang on about someone being "overrated" or weak" or "shit" or whatever it may be. It's not an ability thing. Funnily enough, as an aside, if you look at a thread for our other young attacking midfielder (who did less than Gil last season) you'll find pretty much high hopes and a reliance on him for this season being "a big one". He contributed to our relegation too, why the shift? And so the circles of VT will carry on going round and round. Personally, I'll continue to wish best for those who tried their best at our club (cue: "he's **** shit if that's his best. Not missed" comments, I'm sure). Edited August 4, 2016 by bobzy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 With reference to Grealish, he's committed to trying to fix the problems of last year, which he played a part in. He didn't get his agent to get him away from the club as fast as possible. Surely you can see the difference there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, bobzy said: Funnily enough, as an aside, if you look at a thread for our other young attacking midfielder (who did less than Gil last season) you'll find pretty much high hopes and a reliance on him for this season being "a big one". He contributed to our relegation too, why the shift? For me - four factors 1. He's one of our own. Which may or may not be relevant depending on your angle. 2. He has fully committed himself, publicly, to helping the club out of the hole it finds itself in. 3. He's the more talented player. 4. He had a weird season, full of injury and off the field incident which makes me more predisposed to writing it off. We barely saw him post Sherwood, whereas we saw a lot of Gil and very little of it enamoured me to him. Opinion and conjecture I know, but they do say opinions are like arse holes. Whoever 'they' are. P.S. There are 3 years between them. Edited August 4, 2016 by dont_do_it_doug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael118 Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 I respect we all have different opinions but the general perception that Grealish is more talented than Gil just isn't right. Also Grealish's off field antics can be written off but Bacuna's spur of the moment, meaningless comments can't be? Different rules for different players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Just now, Michael118 said: I respect we all have different opinions but the general perception that Grealish is more talented than Gil just isn't right. Also Grealish's off field antics can be written off but Bacuna's spur of the moment, meaningless comments can't be? Different rules for different players. Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael118 Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 1 minute ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: Yep. Pretty unfair don't you think especially if you are Bacuna or anyone who doesn't rate Grealish all that highly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 1 hour ago, sharkyvilla said: Just leave this thread for the fans who want to follow how he's getting on. There's no need for the arguments any more. That's right, anyone not wanting to come here to praise Carles better back off or Michel Alonso will come along and renew almost completely your computer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, Michael118 said: Pretty unfair don't you think especially if you are Bacuna or anyone who doesn't rate Grealish all that highly? I don't think Bacuna cares what I think. Nor should anyone who doesn't rate Grealish that highly. This is the Gil thread, not the thread where you get to ask me morality related questions! However suffice to say it's not as black and white as you are proposing, is it. There's more to it than Player A did this and Player B did that so they should be treated the same. Life doesn't work like that bud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 18 minutes ago, Michael118 said: I respectwe all have different opinions but the general perception that Grealish is more talented than Gil just isn't right. Also Grealish's off field antics can be written off but Bacuna's spur of the moment, meaningless comments can't be? Different rules for different players. It clearly is. Bacuna could win fans back. I'm sure if he contributed to promotion, opinions would change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGC Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 4 minutes ago, Michael118 said: Pretty unfair don't you think especially if you are Bacuna or anyone who doesn't rate Grealish all that highly? Grealish has shown he can be a very good and big player for us. Bacuna has shown us all to be frustratingly shite and has just regressed and not developed since making his debut. Grealish has shown maturity in the pre season, I think we as the fans can appreciate his growth in character. So the fact he's younger, better and is one of our own means he gets are leighway might not be fair, but that's life. On Carles Gil, I've always quite liked him. Maybe playing him rm didn't really suit him as I've always thought he was a CAM but I always felt he could produce a bit of magic when he got the ball. He worked hard, and gave his all but ultimately it didn't quite work out. Do wish him well though and I don't think he's the type of player to refuse to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 4 hours ago, bobzy said: Presumably Benteke is shit, then? Benteke did shine though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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