JPA - villa hero or villa flop?

[ml1dch]

the latter was a fluke.

Bollocks was it.

And what does the importance of the goal have to do whether it was good or not?

The fact that Everton were dead and buried, does that mean that goal wasn't good?

The goal was a fluke IMO, say it is bollocks all you want. I dunno what the **** you're going on a bout after that.

I'll explain it patiently and simply to you.

Apparently we shouldn't say " what about coventry" because they would have gone down anyway. So does his excellent goal against Everton not count as a good goal because they would have lost 3-0 anyway?

Always happy to help people who are confused.

[BigJim]

but he has not done the bizz on a regular basis so he is a flop.

Do tell me what Villa player the last 10 years which has done the biz on a regular basis?

Merson? Taylor? We have had a lot of flops havent we.

We have had a lot of very ordinary players, but you can't count them as flops because nobody had very high expectations of them to begin with.

Everybody expected a lot more of JPA (perhaps too much?) But for me he never really lived up to it, so therefore I am tempted to call him a flop.

[slowandlow]

well when your initial points are so vague and frankly, a bit weak, people might need further explanation.

Neither goal was particularly important, the coventry one wasnt particularly good, the everton one was. I haven't said good goals have to be important. What i meant was that in the past people have said Angel scorin against coventry was important cus it relegated them, which is patently untrue

[kkr]

Nice to see this thread hasn't turned into another one of those predictable Angel is great/shit debates!

[slowandlow]

i dont think he is shit by any means, as i have stated, he is neither a hero or a flop in my eyes

[SoccerHQ]

That Chelsea goal and performance was pretty important, probably gave us our best victory in recent years. Can't think of too many more though tbf.

[TRL]

But for me he never really lived up to it,

Before or after he got injured?

[BigJim]

Can't think of too many more though tbf.

I don;t think there were any. And therein lies the whole problem.

Talking about fluke goals, you could say that Chelsea goal was a fluke, because he never repeated it (or even came close to doing so).

In fact of late he has hardly ever even attempted a shot like that.

[eston21]

doug was right - there is a silent majority...

[Maradona10]

I classed him as a hero, someone who i will remember fondly as a player, someone who wore the shirt with pride, thats what a hero is in my book, People say Yorke was a legend but to me the kiss badging and his last performance was utter shite? JPA has not once complained about anything at Villa, If we all start saying 1 season is a fluke we will be saying that about alot of players.

if were talking legendary status, Paul McGrath is a Legend, players who were not only recognised by us but the whole country whereas JPA is idolised by many Villa fans and Columbians.

[SoccerHQ]

I classed him as a hero, someone who i will remember fondly as a player, someone who wore the shirt with pride, thats what a hero is in my book, People say Yorke was a legend but to me the kiss badging and his last performance was utter shite? JPA has not once complained about anything at Villa, If we all start saying 1 season is a fluke we will be saying that about alot of players.

if were talking legendary status, Paul McGrath is a Legend, players who were not only recognised by us but the whole country whereas JPA is idolised by many Villa fans and Columbians.

if Manure had wanted JPA, he'd have been off like a shot.

[Risso]

At his best, one of our better players of the last few years alongside Merson. Never really recovered from injury, and should have left 2 years ago when all the memories of him would have been a lot fonder, and discussions like this one wouldn't be so heated.

I was at the Bolton away semi by the way, and that goal was a great bit of skill in my opinion.

So not quite a hero, and getting too close to being a flop the last 18 months or so.

Still, when you think of the other strikers we've had like Carlton Cole, I'll have mostly good memories of him.

[BOF]

Sorry, just don't get it. The nice guy thing is irrelevant. And however badly Ellis and co treated him when he first arrived he has been paid a huge wage to do his job ever since. We bought him as an out-and-out striker for over £9million and this is his return:-

Current club totals

Apps As sub Goals Yellow Red

Total (Club) 205 (47) 62 15 0

League 175 (41) 44 14 0

FA Cup 9 (1) 1 0 0

League Cup 17 (3) 13 0 0

European/Others 4 (2) 4 1 0

That's a flop. Maybe not a Balabanesque flop but a flop all the same. And certainly not a hero

I'm sorry but if 'hero' to you translates solely into statistics then you really don't understand what the term hero means. To understand it you must appreciate the atmosphere around the place when he came here. The incessant protests and what the fans were craving. He was 'our' signing because of the '£' sign protest. He symbolised us and Gregory managing to get Ellis to open his wallet. He came in as a sort of saviour. A high profile player that we'd beaten top clubs in Europe to sign from South America.

[BOF]

if Manure had wanted JPA, he'd have been off like a shot.

I'm sorry but nothing in his make-up suggests that. You are using a hypothetical situation to try and distort a view of him. In fact the only REAL LIFE comparison that can be made is when he chose Villa over much bigger more successful clubs in Europe.

[Trinity-Tom]

I'm sorry but if 'hero' to you translates solely into statistics then you really don't understand what the term hero means. To understand it you must appreciate the atmosphere around the place when he came here. The incessant protests and what the fans were craving. He was 'our' signing because of the '£' sign protest. He symbolised us and Gregory managing to get Ellis to open his wallet. He came in as a sort of saviour. A high profile player that we'd beaten top clubs in Europe to sign from South America.

That is not a hero to me though Brian. To be a footballing hero, the statistics are the most important thing in my opinion. As I have said, he is a good role model for kids and young pro's but to be a hero he must have achieved something above what he has done. I can accept that injuries may have prevented him from doing this but at the end of the day, whatever the reason, he hasn't achieved it. I cannot regard him as a hero for what might have been.

At times he was brilliant. That was far from the norm though.

[TRL]

Then Henry wouldnt have been a hero for you Tom, as not even him could have achieved good statistics with the squad and tactics we have played the last few years.

[ml1dch]

Then Henry wouldnt have been a hero for you Tom, as not even him could have achieved good statistics with the squad and tactics we have played the last few years.

But that's pure conjecture.

Granted JPA didn't always have the best players around him to help, but to say that the likes of Merson, Solano and Barry didn't provide him with good opportunities or couldn't play at his level is nonsense.

Since his excellent 2003/2004 season JPA's failings have been the cause of nobody but his own ability.

[Trinity-Tom]

Then Henry wouldnt have been a hero for you Tom, as not even him could have achieved good statistics with the squad and tactics we have played the last few years.

Well, I think Henry would have as he is a class apart.

However, what I will say is that over the past 3 years or so, very few players have come out of it with real credit so JPA isn't alone there. Had we had better players and played to JPA's strengths, he may have done better but this is just a supposition and not a reason for me to believe he is a hero. Equally, the same could be said of Phillips, Baros, Allback etc... 3 players who I will easily forget.

At the end of the day, I have seen very little in the last 3 or so years to believe that JPA is the player many people on this site believe him to be. That is down to injury but whatever the reason, his stats and performances lead me to conclude that he is far from a hero.

[TRL]

Then Henry wouldnt have been a hero for you Tom, as not even him could have achieved good statistics with the squad and tactics we have played the last few years.

But that's pure conjecture.

Granted JPA didn't always have the best players around him to help, but to say that the likes of Merson, Solano and Barry didn't provide him with good opportunities or couldn't play at his level is nonsense.

Since his excellent 2003/2004 season JPA's failings have been the cause of nobody but his own ability.

Ah so when playng 4-5-1 with a team with absoluteley NADA creative edge, that should be judged on JPA's own ability.

How long did actually JPA play with Merson? And how was his stats then? This is a genuine question, as i have no idea.

And for Solano and Barry. Well he played very well with Solano even with our crippled central midfield, but when has Barry been a creative force? You should check his assist charts, its hardly impressing.

Henry on the other hand is a player centered in Arsenals attacking movement. They play after his strengths each and everytime, and im sure he would have been nothing like the impressing player we see at Arsenal, if he had played as our striker the last few years. Bet he would have shined through all the hoofing, or not.

[Trinity-Tom]

Well he played very well with Solano even with our crippled central midfield

He didn't actually. In the season where Angel scored 23 in all competitions, Solano played around 6 games after signing in January. The season after Solano was our top scorer with 8. Angel scored 7 in 35 games. Not good considering we were playing to his strengths.