Condimentalist Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Certainly last summers bunch were better than this years, although probably the best player will be Okore and we haven't seen him really. Tonev is an embarrassment but I wouldn't totally write any of the others off at this stage, even Luna. I think we have to bear in mind that he is only being backed to bring in players that will play for for relative peanuts, it's not like these players would be his first playground picks. Nonetheless, I'd say: Guzan - 9 Benteke - 9 Vlaar - 7 Lowton - 6.5 Westwood - 6.5 Kozak - 6.5 Bacuna - 6 KEA - 6 Sylla - 5 Bennett - 5 Luna - 4 Bowery - 3 Tonev - 1 Helenius - ? Okore - ? Steer - ? Overall I think he's done OK. These signings are mainly cheap and low risk. I would trust him to pick up better players with a bit more freedom from above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 How can building the worst squad we've probably ever had in the prem be classed as anything but bad? Last year the defence he built let in a record number of goals and this year we're playing the worst football in the entire league. He's had constraints but there's little to suggest he's done ok with his transfers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 If all of the players that Lambert has signed were now sold we would get more in for them than we paid in total. Given this, I think he has done as well as could be expected with what money he was given whilst at the same time being charged with getting other high earners to leave and keeping the club in the top flight with something near a squad of players to select from. We are taking a huge gamble that players we pay low fees for and that are prepared to join us on low wages for our league will become regular first team starters. It has worked with some, could do with others and it seems will not with others but it seems our football club is no longer prepared to pay big fees or wages so you tend to get what you pay for in most cases. Some will do a lot better than could have been expected (Benteke & Guzan), others will do a bit more than could have been expected or will not maintain first season promise long term and others will do no better or prove less effective than their fees suggested they might. Not a lot of managers would be happy to work under these conditions and as fans we would want the quick fix that our owner is not prepared to meet the cost of giving us. So I do rate some signings very highly, some less so and the jury is still out with some of our buys. But I think we would struggle to find many managers who would have done much better with the cash made available and the constraints he has been working under. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Not every signing will be great especially if you have the budget Lambert currently has. He has to take a few risks with signings. Couldn't he have taken a risk on our youngsters then rather then other club's youngsters? He could've then actually spent his money on trying to improve the first team. Who from our youngsters would you have put in the first team last season? Not this again! We went over this before and you believe Tonev is of a 'completely different standard' to the likes of Grealish and Robinson. I don't need to expand on that really... Whilst Tonev has been poor since he arrived, wasn't be championed by Petrov too? I believe HH has also said that he's shown real quality in training - obviously yet to be translated to match day. Thing is, even if the likes of Grealish and Carruthers had been ready - and please bear in mind that both HH and Jack's own brother have said that JG is not ready for the first team yet - would that be the best way to bring that promising talent on, putting them into a team with little experience, leaving them exposed with the crowd getting on their back? It hasn't worked out for Tonev yet, but at least he's got match experience to be able to handle to pressure. The lads needed to go out on loan for their own development and we'd be failing them by putting them in this team. That's if they're ready for it, and they're not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Lowton, Sylla and Westwood were signed for less than £3m between them, and KEA was not much more, all on between £10 - 15k per week when they arrived. Delfoneso is on £20k per week just to put it in perspective. I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but I can't think of another Premier League club that's had to give so much game time to players to players so cheap? Gardner Ireland N'Zogbia Petrov all gone or out long term from the year before so not sure what choice PL had really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 If all of the players that Lambert has signed were now sold we would get more in for them than we paid in total. I keep reading this but what's it based on? Are we basing it on benteke bringing in a huge fee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Whilst Tonev has been poor since he arrived, wasn't be championed by Petrov too? I believe HH has also said that he's shown real quality in training - obviously yet to be translated to match day. Thing is, even if the likes of Grealish and Carruthers had been ready - and please bear in mind that both HH and Jack's own brother have said that JG is not ready for the first team yet - would that be the best way to bring that promising talent on, putting them into a team with little experience, leaving them exposed with the crowd getting on their back? It hasn't worked out for Tonev yet, but at least he's got match experience to be able to handle to pressure. The lads needed to go out on loan for their own development and we'd be failing them by putting them in this team. That's if they're ready for it, and they're not. Does it really matter whether Petrov recommended him or not? It isn't like he has some track record of recommending players that we can look back to for reassurance. We all agree that Tonev isn't good enough right now (and I'm not one of those completely writing him off either) so we may as well saved money and given our own players a chance. Also, has Kevan actually said that recently? He was asked this by VillaCas and didn't answer one way or the other because it wouldn't be fair on his brother. Judging by his general comments and the posts he 'likes', I'd say he does feel Jack is good enough to be involved in the squad. As for HH, he will hardly say he is ready when Lambert won't be promoting him anytime soon. I don't buy this idea that they shouldn't be given a chance just because we are struggling. In fact, often that is how young players do get their chance. Football is a meritocracy and thus when certain players aren't playing well, it is more likely other players will be given a chance to take their places. If we were doing well and most of the players were playing well, it would be much harder for the young players to break through.Lowton, Sylla and Westwood were signed for less than £3m between them There is no reason to believe that is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Lowton, Sylla and Westwood were signed for less than £3m between them, and KEA was not much more, all on between £10 - 15k per week when they arrived. Delfoneso is on £20k per week just to put it in perspective. I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but I can't think of another Premier League club that's had to give so much game time to players to players so cheap? Gardner Ireland N'Zogbia Petrov all gone or out long term from the year before so not sure what choice PL had really. considering the net transfer spend over the 2 windows where those players were signed was shown in the accounts as just under 22 mil, i doubt they cost 3 million between them. and take into account the 2.5 mil we got back for collins, and you are looking at 24 million in outgoings over lamberts first 2 windows. i don't think he has used that money wisely at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Certainly last summers bunch were better than this years, although probably the best player will be Okore and we haven't seen him really. Tonev is an embarrassment but I wouldn't totally write any of the others off at this stage, even Luna. I think we have to bear in mind that he is only being backed to bring in players that will play for for relative peanuts, it's not like these players would be his first playground picks. Nonetheless, I'd say: Vlaar - 7 Lowton - 6.5 Westwood - 6.5 Bacuna - 6 KEA - 6 Sylla - 5 Bennett - 5 Luna - 4 Overall I think he's done OK. These signings are mainly cheap and low risk. I would trust him to pick up better players with a bit more freedom from above. Surely a wind up?? Vlaar, ok, its beginning to become clear how much we need him (not necessarily how good he is) and has now shown that he is one of Lamberts 'better' signings. - 6/10 Westwood and Lowton - 6.5???? You must be having a laugh? So you believe they have been above average, as that is what your score suggests. 4 for the pair of them. One or two good, no (Il be fair) great moments. Otherwise, woeful. Bacuna - See Westwood and Lowton. KEA - 6. Well that is just plain ridiculous to suggest he has been anything but poor. 6 does not reflect 'poor'. Sylla - 5? He hasn't done anything has he? Bennett - 5? Hes what? Our 3rd/4th choice left back? In a team full of players who are shite at left back. Luna - 4. Yep, probably agree with that one tbf The signings have been awful. Plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Guzan - 9 Benteke - 9 Vlaar - 6 Lowton - 5 Westwood - 5 Kozak - 5 Bacuna - 4 KEA - 5 Sylla - 2 Bennett - 2 Luna - 2 Bowery - Minus 100 Tonev - 0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVTuco Posted December 29, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted December 29, 2013 (edited) Benteke 10 Guzan 9 Vlaar 8 Lowton 6 Kozak 6 Luna 6 Bacuna 5 Westwood 5 KEA 4 Sylla 3 Bennet 3 Bowery 2 Tonev 1 Average 5,2 Median 5 Edited December 29, 2013 by AVTuco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 "I keep reading this but what's it based on? Are we basing it on benteke bringing in a huge fee?" Yes in the main Big-John-10. I suggested if all of Lambert's signings were sold we would get back more than we had paid for them in total. I would guess Benteke would produce £20m - £25m on his own and that Guzan, Vlaar, Lowton, Kozak, Westwood & Bacuna might bring in say another £17m so this would be around what we paid in total without taking into account some loose change for the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_ Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 (edited) Guzan - Hit. If we don't improve, a big team will sign him. Vllar - Hit.... when he's not injured, makes a big impact on the defence. Bennett - Miss Luna - Miss Okore - As said, can't really be judged yet. Lowton - Average, not been the best this season. Westwood - Hit - Been better than most people make out. Bacuna - Average, has his good games and his bad games but has been played out of position a lot. Tonev - Miss - can only hope he gets a lot better! El ahmadi - Average- Has had a few good games. Benteke - Hit - please oh please come back into form though! Kozak - Hit - Personally think he's been ok... scored a few goals and mainly has been substitute.... needs someone to actually try and get on the other end of his headers though as most of the time there's no-one near him! Helenius - Miss- Only because he hasn't really been played other than league cup and a late substitute appearance... want to see him started in a PL at least once so he can properly be assessed! Edit: Forgot Bowery-Miss... been pretty useless everytime I've seen him play! Edited December 30, 2013 by Adam_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaretFondu Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I watch loads League 2 games, and I find it unbelievable that Lambert thought Bowery was the biggest prospect.... Matt McClure of Wycombe was easily the best young striker in my opinion. Rest of the signings have been very average, I personally don't think the signings have been as bad as people make out, our tactics make them look worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.I.C.O. Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 (edited) Guzan - Hit. One of the best keepers in the league currently. Steer - Too early to judge. Vlaar - Hit. Defence is utterly lost without him but his injury record is poor so he should have an experienced head as backup Bennett - Massive Miss - way out of his depth, coming to a League 1 ground near you soon! Luna - Massive Miss - see Bennett, although this clown can't even track back. Okore - Too early to judge. Lowton - Miss - has not pushed on from last season, which is not good to see. I had high hopes for this lad. Westwood - Average - has not pushed on from last season and I only really see him as backup. He needs to bulk up a lot. Sylla - Average - another one out of his depth. Can't see him progressing either. Bacuna - Average, can take a wicked free kick but he's had some truly dire games. Little more than backup for me. Tonev - Massive Miss - one of the worst players I've ever seen play for us. The guy is a total liability. El ahmadi - Average - Solid backup player for what he does, but not good enough to play at this level consistently. Benteke - Massive Hit - Best striker at the club since Yorke. Let's hope he rediscovers his form. Kozak - Hit - Could be a useful backup or supersub and has chipped in with a few goals. Helenius - Too early to judge, he's barely played. Bowery - Miss - Lambert's Salifou. I have no idea what dodgy deal bought him to the club or why he is played Edited December 31, 2013 by R.I.C.O. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Whilst Tonev has been poor since he arrived, wasn't be championed by Petrov too? I believe HH has also said that he's shown real quality in training - obviously yet to be translated to match day. Thing is, even if the likes of Grealish and Carruthers had been ready - and please bear in mind that both HH and Jack's own brother have said that JG is not ready for the first team yet - would that be the best way to bring that promising talent on, putting them into a team with little experience, leaving them exposed with the crowd getting on their back? It hasn't worked out for Tonev yet, but at least he's got match experience to be able to handle to pressure. The lads needed to go out on loan for their own development and we'd be failing them by putting them in this team. That's if they're ready for it, and they're not. Does it really matter whether Petrov recommended him or not? It isn't like he has some track record of recommending players that we can look back to for reassurance. We all agree that Tonev isn't good enough right now (and I'm not one of those completely writing him off either) so we may as well saved money and given our own players a chance. Also, has Kevan actually said that recently? He was asked this by VillaCas and didn't answer one way or the other because it wouldn't be fair on his brother. Judging by his general comments and the posts he 'likes', I'd say he does feel Jack is good enough to be involved in the squad. As for HH, he will hardly say he is ready when Lambert won't be promoting him anytime soon. I don't buy this idea that they shouldn't be given a chance just because we are struggling. In fact, often that is how young players do get their chance. Football is a meritocracy and thus when certain players aren't playing well, it is more likely other players will be given a chance to take their places. If we were doing well and most of the players were playing well, it would be much harder for the young players to break through. Lowton, Sylla and Westwood were signed for less than £3m between them There is no reason to believe that is true. Re - Grealish, he's just turned 18 years old. Use your head. Samir is only 20 too, out getting vital experience himself. Give them (including the manager) time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3te Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I watch loads League 2 games, and I find it unbelievable that Lambert thought Bowery was the biggest prospect.... Matt McClure of Wycombe was easily the best young striker in my opinion. Rest of the signings have been very average, I personally don't think the signings have been as bad as people make out, our tactics make them look worse. I don't think Bowery was signed with the intention of scoring goals to be honest. When I look at him I see a player probably bought to be a bit of a nuisance and battering ram. No real technical ability to speak of, but bags of enthusiasm and a well built bugger with a surprising burst of pace. Look at how he was used last year against physical sides, and he always did alright if you step back and make the assumption he was never on the pitch to score goals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I'm sorry but you just can't justify playing Jordan Bowery at premier league level. I actually like Lambert but he's put together one of the worst squads we've ever had. Not sure that can really be defended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Re - Grealish, he's just turned 18 years old. Use your head. Samir is only 20 too, out getting vital experience himself. Give them (including the manager) time. Again here, the basic argument comes down to the idea that simply because certain players are older, they are automatically more ready for the first team. I don't believe that Tonev is any nearer to the required standard then Grealish, Robinson or Graham currently. The fact that he is 4/5 years older doesn't change that in my estimation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I'm finding it hard to believe that grealish would be worse than tonev at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts