Could any manager do better.

[StefanAVFC]

I don't think putting Lowton in the same bracket as Bowery and Bennett is very fair. He was one of our better performers last season.

[foreveryoung]

I don't think putting Lowton in the same bracket as Bowery and Bennett is very fair. He was one of our better performers last season.

Lowton one of our "better performers last season". Ha! You have just confirmed my comment!

[StefanAVFC]

What? That's a fairly popular and well accepted point of view and I suspect you may be in the minority with your dislike of him. For last season anyway.

 

Or have his early woes this year completed erased what a good season he did have?

[foreveryoung]

I haven't said I dislike him, far from it. Just worried where his quality and better performances have gone. Lamberts fault maybe more than the player??

[StefanAVFC]

Your initial comment implies that you've never seen any quality from Lowton, so I just reminded you that (from a universal PoV) that he was one of our better players last year. I only ever mentioned last year, and I accepted that he hasn't been as good recently. Care to explain why you think Lowton had no quality last year as well?

Not trying to cause an argument, just intrigued.

[foreveryoung]

Sorry, but if you read my post correctly it says, at the beginning I saw graft, meaning quality. Though I was implying, the comment was more about Lamberts ability to motivation and discipline the players, more than the players failing themselves.

[StefanAVFC]

But Lowton in particular had bundles of quality last year and even at the beginning of this year. You're completely dismissing him as a footballer by saying all he has is graft. I just think it's unfair to bundle him into that group you mentioned, that's all.

 

 

Yet I am seeing no quality in these players at all.

 

:/

Edited December 22, 2013 by StefanAVFC

[ROTTERDAM1982]

 Bennett will be a better FB than Lowton.He has more pace, and is slightly better positionally.

 

 Going on to who could manage instead of PL, then i would'nt be disappointed if Hoddle came in.

[foreveryoung]

"Yet im seeing no quality in these players at all" At this present time no!!

[StefanAVFC]

"Yet im seeing no quality in these players at all" At this present time no!!

 

Right, but then you said this.

 

 

 

I don't think putting Lowton in the same bracket as Bowery and Bennett is very fair. He was one of our better performers last season.

Lowton one of our "better performers last season". Ha! You have just confirmed my comment!

 

 

It doesn't matter. Can't be bothered with the angst. Merry Christmas

[Morpheus]

So where are we? – at worst, “a disgrace to this great club and its history” or at best “lower mid-table overachievers” dependent on which posters you ascribe to

 

To post my colours to the mast (and this should come as no great surprise), I’m a Lambert supporter. He wasn’t my first choice after McLeish, but he didn’t look a bad appointment either – certainly back-to-back promotions with Norwich and a very decent debut season in the Premiership (without massive resources) pointed to a manager with real promise.

 

In my opinion, Lambert was certainly at the very top end of managers that we could attract at the time, given the incredibily difficult brief that he seems required to work to. I have no inside knowledge, but my educated guess is that managers like OGS or Martinez gave the job a wide berth because of the impossibility of short-term progress due to the swingeing cost cuts that were required.

 

In that case why did Lambert take the job? I think he has taken a calculated gamble, a gamble that said he had taken Norwich as far as they could go and so if he could keep the Villa in the premiership whilst books are balanced over the first couple of years of his reign, then there will be great potential and perhaps a promise of better things to come in years four and five of the project

 

In return for taking on such a tricky task, and helping Lerner out of the hole that he has dug for himself, he has been given almost unconditional support and (non-financial) backing.  I can’t envisage any scenario in which Lerner would sack Lambert, before Lambert would go of his own accord

Many here have looked back at the first season and a half of Lambert’s tenure using the 20/20 vision of hindsight and the criticisms seem to have a number of themes

• “Why didn’t he keep the existing squad?”  In my opinion this was not a viable option, the main reason being that this was probably specifically against the agreement made with Lerner when Lambert took the job on, but also this was a squad that had collected just 15 points from the previous half season – not just relegation form but humiliating, bottom of the table form.  There was nothing to suggest that this could be turned around
• “Why didn’t he integrate Bent?” I think he tried but I think Bent didn’t come to meet him halfway. A quote from one the Villa backroom staff was “Bent wouldn’t run 15 yards for you”. Certainly, from what we’ve seen at Fulham there is nothing to suggest that out-and-out poachers like Bent are anything but a dying breed
• “Why didn’t he sign fewer, more experienced players” Suggestions here have been players like Berbatov or Adam.  Overlooking the un-overlookable  fact that Lerner would never have sanctioned £60-£80k a week wages, adding a couple of very mercurial ‘talents’ to an unsuccessful and underachieving squad already awash with them (NZog, Ireland, Delph at the time, Bent) would seem a very risky strategy indeed. If that is the approach Lerner required he would have appointed Redknapp
• “Why didn’t he sign 4 x £10m players or 6 x £8m players (or some combination of this)” because this would have left us with a first team squad of around 15 (particularly as in the first season he would only have had the finance to sign 2 x £10m). On this point Faulkner’s comment of “Lambert is able to spend the budget in any way he sees fit” is less than helpful as it supposes that he had many more options than in reality

A recent addition to the criticisms are

• “Why didn’t he build a squad around the successful NextGen players?” There are many reasons why this is an absolute non-starter, not least of which is that these youngsters are still, in the main, 12 months away from being ready to integrate into the premiership were certainly nowhere near ready 18 months ago. A player like Baker who is really struggling would look like a monster and a world-beater in the U21 team
• “Why doesn’t he give Grealish / Doncien etc a game?” this criticism usually goes hand-in-hand with the bizarre comment that  “Lambert loves buying young players but hates giving our own young players a chance”. I’m certain Lambert would love nothing more than to have two or three academy players to drop in who would be ready for the premiership but much as we would wish otherwise they’re not

Finally we have a group of criticisms which say

• “Newcastle (for example) bought loads of new players last season and, at first, they struggled to settle but now they are pulling up trees”  except Newcastle bought a load of £60k a week footballers
• “The team is littered with inexperienced players not up to the standard of the Premier League” on this one it’s hard to know what type of players Lambert was expected to bring in on £8k-£10k a week, and even more puzzling that anyone might think that a bunch of these would be giving footballing lessons to even middle-table sides.
• “We just simply have no style, no shape, and seemingly no strategy under Lambert”  On this one quite the opposite is the case. Lambert has a clear style and strategy and has amassed points so far utilising that style. It’s not pretty and it’s not the style that Lambert would like to play I’m sure, but it’s necessary in order to allow these ordinary players to compete
• “He could have bought better players for the same money” and by implication the same wages. This is a very subjective one, It depends on how many better young players you believe are available out there and to some extent on how extensive and well-financed Villa’s scouting network is. I think the signing of Benteke hindered Lambert here as it started the expectation that Lambert could pull rabbits out of hats.  When signing players for such small amounts, in my opinion, it will enevitably by hit and miss. People moan why did we sign Vlaar when he had known injury problems, probably because if he was injury-free he would have been three times the price and in demand elsewhere. As it turns out his knee injury has not been a major problem and so in that respect the gamble paid off

Finally

 

“Why didn’t he sign a creative midfielder / another centre-back / a holding midfielder etc”  probably because he didn’t feel we could bring in anyone better than we’ve got using the money available.  Lambert wanted Sissoko, Kiyotake and Lukaku and it’s clear that we would be a different proposition with players like that in the team

 

Last season I was happy to stay in the premiership and we generally progressed as the season went on except for a terrible run over Christmas. This season my expectation was/is a 10^th-12^th place finish with perhaps a little less drama than last year.

 

Given the nature of the premier league, 10 points often cover the teams from 8^th place down to 18^th and so in the ups and downs of a season it is almost impossible for a mid-placed team to feel insulated from relegation.  Panic-mongers will spout “we are only two games (6 points) away from the relegation zone, but of course it doesn’t really work that way with most teams in the bottom half on average capturing around a point a game.

 

The defeat to MU was predictable, but the defeats to Fulham and Stoke were much more disappointing.  We massively struggle when we have not got our first 11 available.  I doubt that even if we struggle in the next three games – which given the absence of Benteke and Vlaar seems likely, I think that it is still not on the cards that Lerner will support any great transfer activity in January

 

I’m sticking with Lambert for the time being – despite all the criticism I don’t doubt his determination to succeed. From the little I hear, he is an incredibly hard-working and dedicated man. I can’t see any possible advantage of bringing in another similarly skilled manager to the same circumstances and expecting a different result

 

Personally I’ll continue to support Lambert and the team for the rest of this season and reassess then. At the moment I can’t see how any criticism or vocal dissent can help the team

I understand those with genuine concerns but I think my position is pretty clear, I’m not going to spend Xmas responding to snipe-y or sarky comments cherry-picking one point or another, instead I’m hoping for a Xmas gift of three points against Palace and a decent return from the next couple of games

I could yet again respond to every point you have made in this post but both our views are as well known to one another as they are ever going to be and are too far apart to ever reach agreement or indeed common ground. That being said it is an excellent post.

 

Just one issue which I have bolded and wish to comment on.

 

It is totally ironic that the above statement has been made after the last two games in particular when you have continually slated other posters for being negative and for their opinions on certain players. The fact is that your criticisms of those posters have actually come back to bite you in the backside and only now do we see the morality card coming out.

 

One would hope that is now a lesson learnt? 

[TRO]

It is clear that Paul Lambert has had limited funds to work with, but we are forgetting that has not always been the case. We have bought too many players for a too high transfer fee and too high a wage for their return back to the football club.

In short previous managers have created this backdrop that Paul Lambert is having to try and manage.

However there is not a get out of jail card available.....he has to find a way, to find a few gems. That will be the measure the man will have to contend with for a while. It's no use saying every time he signs a low budget player....what do yo expect?

Platt, Yorke, McGrath, Laursen.

Ok, so we got lucky?...then we will have to get lucky again.

Guys, we have had the money....the owner could not unconditionally sign cheques in return for the dross we have had to witness..hence why we are where we are.

Some of us are not looking for a new owner....we are looking for another fool.

We have an owner and a manager, that's got to work this out.

Edited December 22, 2013 by TRO

[VillaCas]

It is totally ironic that the above statement has been made after the last two games in particular when you have continually slated other posters for being negative and for their opinions on certain players. The fact is that your criticisms of those posters have actually come back to bite you in the backside and only now do we see the morality card coming out.

 

One would hope that is now a lesson learnt? 

 

 

Just back from a great lunch and slightly worse for wear so you'll excuse me if I don't post a long reply

 

I assume you are referring to Berbatov and Adam? Just to be clear I think that they would have both been terrible signings for us - Berbatov is massively talented but turns up for one game in ten and in old fashioned terminolgy would be called a fanny-merchant (this is not as exciting as it sounds kids). He wouldn't be in the first 1000 players I would sign if I had that sort of money.

 

Adam is a different kettle of fish and as a player I quite like him. I would have him in my side but at the kind of money that would be required there would be 100 players ahead of him on my list

 

In terms of morality, I've no problem with a little criticism or even anger in the debate where people with the opposite point of view hold genuine views (such as yourself) or make intelligent points (such as many other posters ). What I'm not interested in doing is expending energy in debate with a 12 year old banging out random comments on his phone. The level of "debate" on the Lambert thread last week hit an all time low and unsurprisingly the mods lost patience and locked it

 

Lesson learnt? Not in any way

 

Signing off until after Xmas - have a very good one M and lets hope that the improvement resumes from Boxing Day

[TRO]

Villacas

I agree with you about Berbatov....all the more gauling that we play a game of freedom of the park with him

He is a technician, when he can be bothered, he usually gets interested when players give him space and keep out of his face.

I was at Fulham and it was basic....even I could see it so I'm sure the manager could.

I know these players are hard to close down.....I seen our own David Evans (peripheral young player) man mark the great Johann Cryuff out of the game, when playing Ajax.

It can be done..

Edited December 22, 2013 by TRO

[VillaCas]

Villacas

I agree with you about Berbatov....all the more gauling that we play a game of freedom of the park with him

He is a technician, when he can be bothered, he usually gets interested when players give him space and keep out of his face.

I was at Fulham and it was basic....even I could see it so I'm sure the manager could.

I know these players are hard to close down.....I seen our own David Evans (peripheral young player) man mark the great Johann Cryuff out of the game, when playing Ajax.

It can be done..

 

TRO - not looking for an argument as I think we are mostly on the same page

 

You might be thinking of a different game but I was there in '78 when Cruyff playing for Barcelona torn us to ribbons before going off injured at 0-2 , MacNaught and Deehan got very late goals to unexpectedly and undeservedly pull us level. Little put us one up in the second leg but we lost 2-1

 

http://www.11v11.com/matches/aston-villa-v-barcelona-01-march-1978-217593/

 

Edited December 22, 2013 by VillaCas

[Oaks]

I think what we are seeing at the moment is a team with big players missing struggling. We may have been found out, and our star striker has clearly still carrying an injury. Who knows but this squad can't handle 3 or 4 major players missing. But that's just the results. The biggest problem this season is the football. It's just awful. No fluidity, no composure on the ball and lack of ideas. It's only so long until fans get fed up paying £35 plus for 30% possession of the ball.

[Biskitt]

I do think Lambert has had a pretty tough hand to deal with this season so I'm prepared to cut him some slack. Firstly, our new centre back ( who looks like he has pace and can pass a ball ) suddenly gets injured for the whole season and our other 1st choice centre back is now injured. If you go down the league and take out the first choice centre back pairing of any team, you'd see what a difference it would make.

Secondly, I think some of the blame has to be pointed at the players. Only Delph, Vlaar, Clark and to a lesser extent KEA seemed to have kicked on and improved from last season whereas Benteke, Wiemann, Lowton, Westwood, Sylla etc all seem to have gone backwards. Is this totally the managers fault ? Our much feared front 3 scored 35 league goals last season but with nearly half the season gone this year have 6 between them. Is this all Lamberts fault too ? Gabby seems to avoid criticism because he's "one of us" but he's scored 1 goal all season and on current run rate will score 3 goals all season. That's totally unacceptable for a player on his wages and his experience. Is it any wonder we're struggling ?

Ive not been impressed with some of Lamberts signing ( Tonev, Bennett ) but on the whole, I think he has got value for money. Unfortunately, in most cases you'll get what you pay for though and when paying small fees and wages then the risk of players not working out is quite high. I just hope that now the purse strings can be loosened a bit ( particularly with wages ) because wether it's Lambert in charge or someone else, we're only going to struggle if this continues.

Were 13th in the league at present which is about where we should so sacking him now would be madness IMO. For those who want him gone, who realistically would you get in who could do a better job with the current restrictions in place ?

[TRO]

 

Villacas

I agree with you about Berbatov....all the more gauling that we play a game of freedom of the park with him

He is a technician, when he can be bothered, he usually gets interested when players give him space and keep out of his face.

I was at Fulham and it was basic....even I could see it so I'm sure the manager could.

I know these players are hard to close down.....I seen our own David Evans (peripheral young player) man mark the great Johann Cryuff out of the game, when playing Ajax.

It can be done..

 

TRO - not looking for an argument as I think we are mostly on the same page

 

You might be thinking of a different game but I was there in '78 when Cruyff playing for Barcelona torn us to ribbons before going off injured at 0-2 , MacNaught and Deehan got very late goals to unexpectedly and undeservedly pull us level. Little put us one up in the second leg but we lost 2-1

 

http://www.11v11.com/matches/aston-villa-v-barcelona-01-march-1978-217593/

 

 

 different game

[TRO]

I do think Lambert has had a pretty tough hand to deal with this season so I'm prepared to cut him some slack. Firstly, our new centre back ( who looks like he has pace and can pass a ball ) suddenly gets injured for the whole season and our other 1st choice centre back is now injured. If you go down the league and take out the first choice centre back pairing of any team, you'd see what a difference it would make.

Secondly, I think some of the blame has to be pointed at the players. Only Delph, Vlaar, Clark and to a lesser extent KEA seemed to have kicked on and improved from last season whereas Benteke, Wiemann, Lowton, Westwood, Sylla etc all seem to have gone backwards. Is this totally the managers fault ? Our much feared front 3 scored 35 league goals last season but with nearly half the season gone this year have 6 between them. Is this all Lamberts fault too ? Gabby seems to avoid criticism because he's "one of us" but he's scored 1 goal all season and on current run rate will score 3 goals all season. That's totally unacceptable for a player on his wages and his experience. Is it any wonder we're struggling ?

Ive not been impressed with some of Lamberts signing ( Tonev, Bennett ) but on the whole, I think he has got value for money. Unfortunately, in most cases you'll get what you pay for though and when paying small fees and wages then the risk of players not working out is quite high. I just hope that now the purse strings can be loosened a bit ( particularly with wages ) because wether it's Lambert in charge or someone else, we're only going to struggle if this continues.

Were 13th in the league at present which is about where we should so sacking him now would be madness IMO. For those who want him gone, who realistically would you get in who could do a better job with the current restrictions in place ?

 

I think that is a very fair assessment and interesting to mention Gabby

 

IMO It is an indictment on the club and an illustration of the complacency or lack of drive when arguably one of your best players who is a forward has scored 1 goal to date....I am not criticising Gabby as such( although not happy with that stat) more the club for not having players to properly challenge him.

[Biskitt]

I do think Lambert has had a pretty tough hand to deal with this season so I'm prepared to cut him some slack. Firstly, our new centre back ( who looks like he has pace and can pass a ball ) suddenly gets injured for the whole season and our other 1st choice centre back is now injured. If you go down the league and take out the first choice centre back pairing of any team, you'd see what a difference it would make.

Secondly, I think some of the blame has to be pointed at the players. Only Delph, Vlaar, Clark and to a lesser extent KEA seemed to have kicked on and improved from last season whereas Benteke, Wiemann, Lowton, Westwood, Sylla etc all seem to have gone backwards. Is this totally the managers fault ? Our much feared front 3 scored 35 league goals last season but with nearly half the season gone this year have 6 between them. Is this all Lamberts fault too ? Gabby seems to avoid criticism because he's "one of us" but he's scored 1 goal all season and on current run rate will score 3 goals all season. That's totally unacceptable for a player on his wages and his experience. Is it any wonder we're struggling ?

Ive not been impressed with some of Lamberts signing ( Tonev, Bennett ) but on the whole, I think he has got value for money. Unfortunately, in most cases you'll get what you pay for though and when paying small fees and wages then the risk of players not working out is quite high. I just hope that now the purse strings can be loosened a bit ( particularly with wages ) because wether it's Lambert in charge or someone else, we're only going to struggle if this continues.

Were 13th in the league at present which is about where we should so sacking him now would be madness IMO. For those who want him gone, who realistically would you get in who could do a better job with the current restrictions in place ?

I think that is a very fair assessment and interesting to mention Gabby

IMO It is an indictment on the club and an illustration of the complacency or lack of drive when arguably one of your best players who is a forward has scored 1 goal to date....I am not criticising Gabby as such( although not happy with that stat) more the club for not having players to properly challenge him.

Don't get me wrong, I like Gabby as a player but he always looks like he's threatening ( anyone with his pace is going to look dangerous ) without actually being that threatening at all ! He frustrates the hell out of me because he could and should be a much better player than he actually is with the attributes he has. Excluding the bomb squad, He is the only player in our squad who you could call a seasoned premier league player ( and therein lies another problem ) and I just feel he should be offering more to the team at the moment as one of our senior players.