jackbauer24

The 'official' Death List has 50 people on it and last year (2015) got a joint record of 14 which is quite a hit rate. The new list has been published for 2016 and I think we'll recognise the guy in 26th... www.deathlist.net

I'm not going to defend Sherwood but some of the blame IS ridiculous. I don't care how bad a manager you are, there is no way any manager can have such an influence so many months after he's departed! I don't think it's possible to destroy a teams mindset to such a degree that there is no recovery. People are using a weak link to make them feel better about what remains - the players. Sherwood may well have been a big problem but people must see now that the players simply aren't good enough and that's biggest issue. Our current manager can't even get a win out of this bunch, Sherwood isn't so admired in the footballing world that any tactics or words he used on our players have destroyed them forever!

It is as difficult to compare Chairman from different eras as it is players. Messi or Pele... However, whilst I accept it's not cut and dry, Ellis made lots of mistakes but finally left us with zero debt, in the top division and sold us comparatively cheaply considering cost of clubs. Lerner will be leaving us millions of pounds in debt, in a lower division and will be looking to sell us above market value in all likelihood. The Premier League era has been going since 92. That's not the full story but is a bloody long time. Ellis 'achieved' two cups and some reasonable league finishes interspersed with relegation worries. Lerner has achieved nothing and more bad seasons than good. Lerner wins on character perhaps, maybe he even respects our history more but in my eyes, Ellis is the better Chairman/ owner. I don't think we would have been relegated from the league in this day and age under his ownership. Neither are great, but Lerner is far worse than Ellis in my eyes.

Last season we were the worst team to survive. We then replaced; Delph with Gana (considerable downgrade) Cleverley with Veretout (marginal downgrade at moment, maybe in future it won't be) Benteke with Gestede (considerable downgrade) Vlaar with Richards (much the same, both either great or awful and getting on a bit and subject to injuries) Weimann with Ayew (considerable upgrade) Baker (loan) with Lescott (again, much the same, either invisible or a disaster) and then Traore who is almost an addition to the squad. All the other signings don't, or can't (Amavi), play. Fundamentally we didn't replace Hutton, Sanchez or Richardson at all. So there, to me, is no debate that this squad is considerably worse than the squad that was awful last season. Which is why I find any debate about managers kind of pointless - football fans generally only recognise a manager as being good if they're getting results and I maintain that is IMPOSSIBLE with this squad of players. It was over the second we didn't improve the squad. Even if you want to argue some of the players were good signings, you'd struggle to say they are better than what left with a straight face. It always amazes me that people can't see past 'bad players getting bad results = bad manager' - no manager could get this squad safe.

I almost envy those who still have hope! How the hell do you do it? Is it complete and utter faith or is it just denial? Forget about how far behind we are, how many points we need to average etc, what exactly have you seen from this team that gives you even an inkling of hope that we can win a game, never mind ten?! I'm genuinely interested on a psychological level, where does this hope come from? I thought even the most optimistic of fans would need a shred of evidence for their beliefs. We have one of the worst squads we've ever had (in our history), we're in the midst of an ongoing record for most games without a win, we're heavily in debt to a Chairman who is at best uninterested and are on track to be relegated mathematically by Easter as one of the worsf teams in the league's history. I'm cursed by being overly analytical and look at the probabilities of everything, unfortunately this year I saw this was the liklihood the second the transfer window closed and is why I started this thread. It was always more likely than not that we were going to seriously struggle. I think Sherwood got too much blame and people are prematurely jumping on Garde now and it's unfair on both - the players simply aren't good enough. So where do you get your shreds of evidence for any positivity?

Richardson, Clark, Hutton, Gana not Premier League quality Guzan, Westwood, Richards, Sinclair suitable for a lower league Premier League for squad rotation Veretout and Ayew good enough for the league if given time to settle I wonder why any manager can't get this squad to midtable safety... absolute mystery....

Look through the eyes of an experienced 'neutral' player. You've got three possible motivations; money (most), chances of success/ Euros (a lot) and the underperforming and just want to play (a few). We will be unwilling/unable to compete with few in the money bracket, we can offer far less than other struggling teams in the chance to shine bracket so will have to look largely at that small window of just wanting to play. Otherwise it's unknowns/untested again. Remy, Falcao are nice dreams but fall in to money bracket (wages plus possible sign on if permanent) so never going to happen. Austin will either wait 6 months for the money motivation of choose a struggling team that have a better chance of survival, Newcastle being obvious choice. Naismith seems to fit in to that rare last category of just wanting to play so is most realistic. I think a few people might be disappointed with our transfer business. Even if Lerner does sanction moves, it's going to be incredibly hard to convince anyone looking for money or the chance to shine to come to Villa. As a neutral player you'd choose safer bet of Newcastle, Sunderland, Swansea even arguably Bournemouth.

It was our best performance of the season yesterday against an injury hit midtable team at home. And we still couldn't win. Not because of the referee, not because of the tactics, not because of bad luck, not because we didn't 'click' but simply because we're not good enough. We don't have enough quality. People can talk about numbers, form, runs, confidence, improvements all they like, we're never all going to agree. There are, almost admirable, people on here who will truly believe it's possible until it becomes mathematically not. There are others who will feel we're doomed even if we win five in a row as it'd be unsustainable form. But to me, form comes from quality and we have very little. Something impressive needs to happen in the January transfer window to make me change my mind.

We said that against Watford... then Newcastle... eventually we just have to recognise that it's too late. It'll be Norwich that'll 'kick start' our season after this game..

Sorry to go against the grain here but we need to keep him. Bar an absolute shock, we'll be in the Championship next year and I think he could do a good job in that division. He may be finished at this level but he'd be useful to keep around in that league - if nothing else hopefully a bit of pride might come back to him if he can get us back up at the first attempt.

The whole Guzan argument again. Personally I don't see him as a major part of our issues. Unless someone has stats that indicates his saves to shot ratio is far worse than I imagine then I'd guess he's quite solidly a midtable goalkeeper playing for a very bad team. I'm all for upgrades across the squad but I'd say that the obvious targets would have a far greater impact on our results - Sanchez, a LB, Gestede, Gana and even Lescott and Richardson. They're the 'easy' targets - goalkeeper is not a priority for me at all, I'd be looking at at least four or five other positions before a goalkeeper.

Absolute bare minimum is a new LB, a strong leader in midfield and a striker who works hard and can hold up the ball as needed. We may also need a CB if Richards is going to be a worry week on week. Gana and Sanchez need to be dropped, they can't be trusted to keep the ball and I'd wager most of our conceded goals come from sloppy play from the midfield. Westwood, whilst not spectacular, can be trusted to do the simple stuff well. He should sit in front of the back four and sweep up and do the simple stuff as he's generally quite composed (not at shooting though!). Then have Veretout as a more forward thinking player along side a 'proper' midfielder who won't be caught napping, won't play lazy passes and won't be caught on the ball constantly. Then use combination of Ayew, Traore or Gil with a strong striker, one who can hold the ball up, who can bully defenders and actually cause problems. With that, we might get more points than Derby but think we need probably another two midfielders if anyone still holds any hope of survival. What's letting us down is our midfield, not the defence or strikers. They put undue pressure on the defence by lazy, sloppy passes and fail to create opportunities for forward players. To be honest, Gana, Sanchez, Westwood and Veretout aren't good enough. Veretout shown the briefest glimpses but no one else has. Sinclair, Traore, Gil and Grealish as the more creative midfielders also heavily lack in key areas (Sinclair ability, Traore team work, Gil strength and Grealish workrate). It's the mdfield letting us down. Put Delph and Cleverley back in there and I'm confident we'd be just outside the relegation zone. We'd still be lacking a forward but would be doing just enough with Ayew and either Sinclair, Traore or even Gabby helping out. We're never going to be comfortable with this many substandard players, but it's the midfied that really causes us the most probkems both defensively and going forward.

We're experiencing one of the most unpredictable seasons in years, Chelsea almost look like relegation candidates, Leicester are clear at the top and 'shocks' happen every week. The only predictable element of this season is Villa. We were useless last season and then lost all our better players. We then replaced them all with gambles. We have scored the fewest goals and have had the fewest shots on target. We cover the one of least amounts of ground per game. I think almost all stats put us in the relegation zone. There is nothing that indicates it's just a case of 'clicking' or it being luck. The quality ISN'T there. It's that simple. Chelsea can argue that it's due to extenuating circumstances and they'll be fine, we can't - they're is abolutely no evidence to support that. There isn't one team that is worse than us, never mind three. This team are incapable of winning another game without some new players, we'd get a few more scrappy draws at best. Villa getting relegated is about the only thing that can be guaranteed this season. There has been no evidence since August this team has anything about it.

Today was perfect for him. Britsh weather, no point playing it in the floor, Veretout, Bacuna, Hutton and Westwood trying to cross balls in. And to be fair to him he caused a few more problems than normal. But his impact was still minimal, just wasn't awful for once. But today was perfectly set up for him and doubt that 'perfect storm' will occur too many more times this season so I'd rather see Sinclair, Gabby or preferably Traore ahead of him when we play West Ham on Boxing Day.

I said the season either started or ended today. It ended. Point isn't good enough, we were awful first half and even in the second half they were more likely to get the winner in the last ten minutes where we looked happy with the draw. Ayew is only player who played well and he was pretty anonymous first half. This squad is awful, only 5 or 6 first team signings that settle immediately, a lot of luck with injuries and at least two other teams completely collapsing will change our fate.

Is anyone else beginning to wake up to the fact Lambert and Sherwood weren't the problem yet?! How bloody obvious do you need it to be? It's nothing to do with whoever is in charge, it's the fact the playing squad lacks ANY quality due to years of cost cutting, underinvestment and cheap players. A tweak here, a different substitution there will make no difference in the grand scheme of things. We'll still have the likes of Lescott, Sanchez, Gana, Veretout, Hutton, Guzan, Sinclair... they're just not good enough at all. We're down. I know that. I've known that for ages. The only 'if' for me is whether we'll go down as the worst team in Premier League history. Without signings I am convinced we will be, this team will be lucky to win one more game without new players. Our 'best' first XI is still awful.

I think he should be given a start but, like a lot of people on here, think it should be in more of a striker role. We have a lack of forward options, he refuses to pass anyway, he can beat a man and will take a shot. What's to lose? At least give him the confidence of a start and then take him off after 60 if it's not really working, can't see how he'd be worse than any other striking options.

Agree 100% with him on both N'Zogbia and Gabby. Also think he's got a very strong point with his view on Traore. But it always sits uncomfortably with me when any manager of any team shares this in public, it should be kept in house. Just screams of divisions, fractured relationships and an unhappy squad. Back every single one of them in public, then be honest with them at BMH. I always think clubs that share this kind of information and feelings with the press are in an even bigger mess than we think - and when that comes to Villa it must be bad!

There a lot better options out there than Gabby Agbonlahor. But the depressing thing is, here and now, he's still one of our best options up front - the lack of numbers doesn't help admittedly but he's also a better option than Gestede, even going forward will have more of an impact than Kozak does and I worry Ayew will be off the second we're relegated.

ANGRY - that we have an owner who is so useless as to get a club the size of Villa relegated. RELIEVED - that it's happening finally, I feel it was always coming and in a way wish it happened sooner to instigate change HOPEFUL - that owning a season ticket will be a pleasure rather than a chore for a year SCARED - that owning a season ticket will just see the same demise at a new lower level EMBARRASSED - by how bad we are, the fact we're going down with a whimper, losing 'ever-present' status AMBIVALENT - which is what Lerner's ownership has made lots of fans feel like. RELAXED - other than the last few years anyway, I saw this coming on September 1st. I've had very little doubt so have made peace with it. Nothing we can do about it and we know Lerner will do nothing about it so stopped caring. I go every week but don't get angry at the losses and barely celebrate rare goals such is going through the motions at the moment. The outcome is inevitable both game by game and the season as a whole. So... schizophrenic?!

Draw isn't good enough at this stage. If we're still happy picking up a point just because we're away against another lowly placed team then it's over. 3 points or nothing. The season starts, or finishes, on Saturday.

He was one of only two players to make an impact in the first half. It was limited and it lacked any true threat but he tried something and I prefer that to people backing out of stuff for fear of making a mistake. And talk of him being the worst player in the league is laughable. For a start he's better than Lescott, Clarke, Richardson, Sanchez, Gestede and Gabby. And that's without needing to think about the squad too much! He's also our top scorer this season for someone who doesn't play as a striker. Don't get me wrong, I'm hardly his biggest fan but in a way that's worse - he's not great and he's still better than half our squad.

Is it just me or is this basically our squad anyway? Minus Gestede, Gabby and Richardson who are useless rather than lack desire. So you'd pick from pretty much the squad we have... You're right about lack of desire and attitude though. I just think you can add Lescott (desire's gone at this stage of career), Bacuna (doesn't seem to take it seriously) Hutton (attitude is too agressive, desire is there in buckets), Clark (attitude/confidence), Gana (desire doesn't seem there, no extra runs, no passion, no voice, meek), Sinclair (attitude right, probably similar to Lescott regarding desire, especially with new kid), Grealish (attitude clearly, thinks he's made it) and Traore (not yet a team player). Doesn't mean the above can't be ok/ good players, just means currently they're not showing desire to win balls or the right attitude for the situation we're in. That's very different to ability though.

I don't think anyone is so out of their mind with rage that they can't see he's obviously not at fault for everything. Even me! In the same way you can't blame the manager when Sanchez gets caught on the ball by being useless for example... But it's Lerner's fault we have bad players, it's Lerner who's restricted the transfer budget to pennies to make every signing a bigger gambke than it needs to be, it's Lerner who has restricted the wages to peanuts so we attract prospects from lower standard divisions, it's Lerner who has hired the wrong people in every department, it's Lerner who has responded to practically every situation in the worst possible way, it's Lerner's fault even if he's just guilty of neglect. You can't really ever pin the fault on one man when any mass corporation goes under, but Lerner is more culpable than most. This wasn't market forces, or a result of external pressures or even increased competition from other teams - this was systematic failings by Lerner at every stage of his ownership. If a fat person has decided they've eaten too much for five years they are right to do something about it. They modify their diet, they cut out elements and cut back gradually. But what they don't do is go on a hunger strike for five years. They do that, they die. And that's what Lerner has effectively done with Villa. I have no issue with having a pauper for a Chairman and spending within boundaries is fine but that leaves only two outcomes; either he's a useless business man who has crippled this club after going on a five year spending splurge that was stupid to begin with and unsustainable OR he's a useless businessman who doesn't know how to modify a business and has neglected us to such a degree that we are where we are. Is he 100% responsible? No. No one ever is. 99% seems fair though. It's a limited chain of command, in an organisation he should have complete control over (no franchises, not 1000s of employees stretched across the globe). He needs to get a decent CEO, a decent Manager and a decent team. 20 people in simplistic terms. All very manageable to any Chairman who's in charge of a club the size of Villa (the biggest, most successful team in the midlands, the fifth most successful team in England and Prem Leage ever presents) with the riches this league brings. If he's got the wrong people in charge every time for the last ten years, that's all on him, he's had 3 or 4 CEOs and 6 or 7 managers, how any times do you need to get it wrong. And I've said it before; it boils down to one fact. He bought Aston Villa for a very cheap amount, debt free. He's now about to see us relegated with the worst squad most of us have ever seen and millions of pounds in debt. That's ALL Lerner.

Have you got a link that those interested can click on, I'd love to read it but have no idea what CITW is! Fox baffles me, I've been in the same room as him and spoken to him 1 to 1 and he comes across fantastically, he has answers for everything and says the right stuff. But then you see where we are, how we've got there, and you can't help but feel it's spin.