jackbauer24

It's ok, we have our new manager in place. They've already decided Donacien is not needed and can head out on loan. I mean that's definitive proof isn't it - not like people who aren't the manager would have any impact on our player choices... Oh.

I find it a little sad, even frustrating, that most fans can't see past the idea that bad results mean you must have a bad manager. It's so simplistic a view. You can of course have a bad manager getting good results too; the teams aren't organised by best manager come the final league table in May, they're organised largely by the best squads and teams. Moyes did a bad job at Utd, but Utd still finished higher than loads of teams - does that mean he was a better manager than all of them?! Of course not. Lambert was given the funds and wage structure to compete for 17th. He had a handful of high earners that hadn't performed for a few managers and the rest were sourced from lower leagues and gambles from abroad. The football was largely poor, defensive and resulted in more lows than highs. Is this a surprise?! He kept us up which was all he was tasked with doing. When it looked like he'd fail to do this, he got the boot. He wasn't under threat if he stayed 17th as that's all Lerner wants and invests in. Unfortunately too many fans are easily swayed by the traditional belief that a good manager can win you the league despite any investment! These people are Lerner's dream fans. I really can't be bothered to argue this with another fan. All I will say is can you name any manager Villa have had that you think did a good job despite losing loads of games?! I give you mud and sticks and a good chef will make it look like a pretty pie, a bad chef will make it look inedible pie. However both pies will taste like sh*t; that makes seeing who was the good chef a much harder job.

To answer the dilapidated house analogue; I either lower my value to get rid of it or I invest to make it sell quicker. I do not just sit by and let it rot through inaction. I am intelligent enough to realise I've made a mistake and do everything I can to recover the maximum amount I can in the quickest time possible whilst recognising I'm going to take a big hit financially. I then get on with my life and me and my old neighbours are all a lot happier. And selling for £1 doesn't mean new owners can't afford to buy us at £200m, it just means they don't recognise that as good value. Villa simply aren't worth the money Lerner wants, doesn't mean the prospective buyers couldn't afford it - so simply drop the price to a point that someone sees it as good value. You may even start a bidding war. The new owners couldn't do a worse job of investing nothing every year.

To all those who believe simply changing manager will be enough, can you please tell me the even 5 or 6 players you think are better than a relegation battle. Surely people recognise that at least half your team has to be of a good enough quality to avoid a relegation battle even if there are issues in some areas. I can think of Amavi, Richards, Grealish and potentially Traore. So four. Grealish and Traore are particuarly raw and have no impact quite often. Richards obviously as an issue with temperament... The rest of the players are at BEST a relegation team. Lescott, Richardson, Gestede and Gabby are Championship standard. A lot of the squad are completely untested, unknowns or have very bad injury records. Our best line up is probably Guzan, Hutton, Richards, Clark, Amavi, Westwood, Gana, Grealish, Traore, Gil, Ayew... and that team is still awful. Be honest with yourselves. And that's why pressure should be on Lerner to invest. Stop being distracted by the easy target of a new manager, the real issue has been player recruitment and has been for ages. You can't keep cutting the quality and surviving. That's why I think protests are still a valid option, whether he still pretends he wants out or not.

A slightly weaker XI for Villa (No Richards, short time for Grealish/Sinclair/Ayew) against a much weakened Southampton that aren't having a great season themselves. But once again Villa offer zero threat, often having a bit of possession but doing nothing with it. This squad really is awful, a new manager is not going to change that. Take off your Villa tinted glasses; which players do you REALLY think are good enough for even a midtable team? The only way Villa stay up is with serious investment in January. We can write off practically every game until January and just hope other teams are equally as awful. I could not think of a starting XI that I would be confident could beat any team in the league. We are defensively fragile, lack hardwork in midfield either through strength or laziness and have the worst strikers in the division. Couple all that with a confused management set up and our only real challenge is not to finish the season with the worst ever points tally.

I think the key issue in people's concern in any prolonged wait is why sack Sherwood when we did? Fair enough if talks have progressed and it's all a relative matter of formality but if you're sacking the current manager knowing you can't get in a replacement pretty quickly then it seems pretty silly to me. Worse still is the idea that he was just sacked with no plan with what's next. Having Sherwood in charge for an extra three games rather than a caretaker makes much more sense, for a start at least there is ome continuity. The main reason for people's clamour for Sherwood to be sacked was so change could take place asap, that doesn't happen with a caretaker manager in place. In fact it often makes things worse. A caretaker manager should over see a game at most. And based on tonight's team selection, Sherwood wouldn't have done any worse! If there isn't someone new in place by Monday then I think that does show some failings at Villa/ by Tom Fox. We should only sack a manager if someone else is relatively close to coming in or the limbo state is just as damaging as an underperforming manager.

I'm staggered by this sentence Me too, I'd say we're closer to 11, 12 or 13 players away from being a good team! In all seriousness, don't let hatred of previous managers disguise the fact this squad is severely lacking in quality. Traore is raw potential, Amavi is more developed potential but not the finished article and Richards is a bit of quality experience. Other than that we are currently made up of lower Premier League or Championship players. And Lescott would struggle to make starting XI for Shrewsbury Town...

Almost inevitably going to be banned now given he's been charged with improper conduct. Which, injures as they are, might mean a central partnership of Lescott and Campo. Remind me... what's the record ever defeat in the league...

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Kozak is great, he's probably not good enough. But he's still better than Gestede!

I think most people would agree it wouldn't be much of a competition. In almost every way, Kozak is better than Gestede!

I don't believe we are the only club in the league who can not spend a penny unless we make player sales. We would have been well within FFP remits to have spent another £20m easy. Taking out the top net spenders (Man City) and the bottom spenders for fairness I added up the spends of each club (according to skysports) and divided by 18 - the average spend was £18m on top of any sales each club made. We spent less than half that. What do I want from a Chairman - one who is willing to compete. Not blow billions but keep up with the modern game. If you can only spend what you earn in player sales then fair enough but that's not the case - every other club makes money from tickets, merchandise and most crucially TV and yet we're the only club who are somehow 'short' all the time. Lerner is a bloody magician for making some fans see this as 'out of his hands'.

This is really simple. Either you believe the following equation is right or you recognise the reality; Poor team - best players + worse players = better results It really is that simple. Forget net spends, forget managers tactics. Last season, and for quite a few seasons, we had a very bad squad. This season most sane people will recognise we have, at best, lost our three best players and replaced the rest like for like. So we are worse than last season, where we finished 17th... It's really not that hard! Bunn* < Given (Given was No.1 when he finished, Bunn isn't) Gana* < Delph (hatred aside, a better player so far, nothing to suggest otherwise) Veretout* < Cleverley (again, not even a contest as it stands) Gestede = Helenius (both not worthy of starting place, Gestede gets one because no competition in that area) Amavi > Luna (Yay, a victory for the current squad and by some distance!) Ayew* = Weimann (might shade towards Ayew but not by much if it does) Lescott < Vlaar (a broken Vlaar is better than a fixed Lescott) Crespo* < Lowton (imagine Lowton will end up having had more of an impact on first XI than Crespo ever will) Ilori < Tonev (ok, taking the mick now! But we can't even make fun of Ilori so that's boring!) Benteke - not replaced. Which leaves Traore and Richards as the improvements to our squad who didn't come in to replace a player. Bent and Herd not bothered being replaced but another significant wage saving in Bent. *also almost certainly considerably lower wages than replacement

Unfortunately I agree with you 100% (despite not being alive in the 60s!) but this is the most pessimistic I've been about Villa since being born in 1980! I would love to be proved wrong, but even a Guardiola, Klopp and Mourinho working in tandem couldn't keep this squad in the division. Sherwood may have made a load of mistakes but frankly the quality just isn't there. Amavi is an improvement on what we had, the rest of the new signings are either average or below that. Gana has been ok but still not at the standards of Delph or Cleverly (putting aside our hatred for a second). Richards is perhaps a slight improvement too actually, unfortunately Lescott is a lot worse! Putting aside the tactics, even individually I have not seen any composure or quality, maybe Traore in spurts aside, but Gestede, Crespo, Veretout, and Ayew have been simply poor. Lescott has been awful. Bunn, Ilori and Sarkic don't look like we even intended on playing them this season. Then there is the original players; Okore, Clark (And Baker) seem to have developed a permanent case of sicknoteitus, Guzan was replaced as No.1 then put back in as we sold Given, Grealish is promising but far too overhyped and offers very little so far, Gabby has never been a potent striker, Hutton, Bacuna, Westwood and Sanchez are all average at best. Then there's a few hundred midfield players who struggle to make a 90minute impact. Swansea had at least four or five players who would walk in to our team on Saturday. Newcastle have a better squad. Sunderland arguably do. Take off the Claret and Blue glasses, this squad is AWFUL. That's what happens when year on year you reduce the quality of the squad. When you reduce the wages. When you don't realise losing the best players in the squad means you need to invest MORE to balance it out. There are a load of people who think because we spent £50m in the summer that it means we've invested - we didn't, we sold our Ferraris and have spent the money on a load of engine parts that may or may not work well individually, never mind be compatible together. And wages tie very closely to ability and once again that's been slashed this year. Yet people still expect us to compete?! We're screwed, I'd love to be more optimistic but reality gets in the way! in relation to FFP, I'm sure we could have spent another £50-60m and still been well within the remit, not that I'd expect that but we should have spent closer to £70m and on less players (too many midfielders, too few strikers) Good luck Garde, or whoever it ends up being, but you have ZERO chance of keeping this club up unless Lerner sells asap and we have funds in January. If/ when we get relegated then the manager will be blamed again as most people can't see past crap team = crap manager. Unless you genuinely believe that Houllier, McLeish, Lambert and Sherwood are all useless... look at the cause, not the symptom. So p*ssed off at Lerner/Villa hierarchy at moment. Don't care Sherwood's gone, the damage is done every day Lerner is here. And Tom Fox is losing any credibility whatsoever, he's just a smarmy buzzword speaking business man who doesn't have a clue about football. We're fun by a group of idiots who know nothing about football, nothing about passion, nothing about fans and are so convinced that they have a secret maths formula for running the club and squad that they can't see how wrong they are getting it. THEY DESERVE relegation. We don't.

It works both ways. Some will say the new manager didn't stand a chance with the mess Sherwood left them if he fails to turn it around. Ultimately ifs, buts and maybes can be used to support which ever side of the fence you are as regards the blame game. I'm almost beyond caring. Regardless of each manager's positives, negatives and idiosyncrasies I don't think they have had a chance of meeting their potential through choices made above them. Some managers we've had may have been capable of managing us to 4th, others may only be able to manage us to 12th... unfortunately all managers have only been supported enough to get us 17th which is all Lerner wants. It's basically irrelevant. I hope I don't like the next manager because I'm confident we'll all be back here in another 8 to 18 months time talking about their replacement. This is absolutely not a support of Sherwood but I think whoever comes in will not succeed at this club and relegation beckons regardless. I feel sorry for whoever takes it.

Amavi will be dropped to bench according to reports/ Sherwood. With Gabby back I wonder if Gestede will start. Clark is fit but he prob won't drop Lescott. Expecting another loss regardless of line up, can't see an XI I'd be confident in.

Is there anyone on here who, at time of them being hired, didn't approve of at least one of Houllier, McLeish, Lambert or Sherwood? Please identify yourself as I'm genuinely interested if such a person exists! I say this because they are, by and large, four very different managers in both style and character. If you accept that you approved of at least one of them (at the time) then I struggle to understand why people can not see past "crap team = crap manager". Ths isn't in support of Sherwood particularly, but I really think the importance of the manager is over-estimated to genie like proportions where we expect them to make diamonds out of mud and accuse them of being useless if they don't. That's not to say each manager hasn't made mistakes, every manager does, but what can we really expect with such player purchases?! One signing this summer was proven Prem quality, Richards. We've taken a rubbish team, stripped it of it's best players, removed any Premier experience and had a huge influx of foreign, often inferior league, cheap, unproven potential players. What do people really expect?! If we were lucky it might have worked but the chances were always slim. It was impossible to replace Benteke, we got pittance for Delph and nothing for Cleverly's resurgence. We lost experienced heads in Vlaar and Given (I'm sure them being high earners was just a coincidence) and seem to have placed our hopes on player recruitment on a rookie manager (especially considering size of overhaul) and two business men with potential profit seemingly outweighing instant impact. When we've had such an overhaul, do we have the luxury of time to develop Ilori, Traore and Ayew in particular? Considering the starting point for each manager, the funds and wage constraints they were given, some have done better than others. But it is not them who have failed to get us 'where we belong', it's Lerner. I said this on September 1st, it doesn't matter who the manager is, with the level of investment (especially considering the departures) the absolute best we can hope for this season is 17th and standing still. Anyone asking for anymore than that is frankly deluded. If Sherwood is failing to keep us in division by all means sack him, but don't suddenly expect midtable safety whoever the next manager is. Every year will be a slog until we start at least matching our opponents spends, partially in transfers but definitely in wages. Money doesn't guarantee success but it's a pretty accurate guideline. Personally I think the damage has been done now, Sherwood or whoever, we won't survive unless we significant invest in January. The situation isn't a surprise to me at all, the fact it seems to have come as a shock to a lot of people is. Really, what were people expecting?

You know it is quite likely that Sherwood isn't good enough AND our players aren't too! People seem to think changing the manager will make everything better, I highly doubt it. Amavi is in improvement on last year's XI, as is Richards probably. Everyone else either was already here (Gil, Sinclair and Grealish), has had injury issues (Traore and Gana), struggled to settle (Ayew), isn't as good as what they're supposed to replace (Veretout & Gestede) or simply squad fillers or downright worse (Bunn, Ilori, Crespo and Lescott). Ultimately, regardless of the manager I think it's just a case this squad isn't good enough. We've tried cheap gambles and it hasn't paid off. The squad isn't stronger, the quality is just more evenly spread so small improvements in some positions are used to paper up cracks caused by significant regression in other areas. Sherwood or someone else, this team is going down without investment in January. The fact is we came 17th last season and, personal issues aside, we'd kill to still have Cleverly, Delph and Benteke in our team. None of them have been improved on. Sherwood prefered Given too, so in his eyes we must have made ourselves weaker there as well. I'd prefer an over the hill, downward spiral highly paid Vlaar to Lescott too!

This isn't for the Sherwood thread but I disagree with you very much on Lerner. I'll concede that he may well not be aware he is tightening the funds to such a degree that relegation is almost inevitable regardless of the manager but he is still doing it! He has reduced investment to a point he thinks we can just about survive on and that's the height of his ambition. Unfortunately a lot of people are waking up to the fact the investment he is putting in is BELOW the required amount to survive. There is no other explantion for failing to even attempt to replace such key departures, there's no explanation for reducing the wages again. Of course he wants to survive but he has finally pushed the limits too far and the only thing that will save us is cash, not a change in manager. I can't say I'm overly fussed one way or the other on Sherwood, I see both potential and problems but above all else I think it's kind of irrelevant whilst Lerner operates in the way he is. I also don't understand anyone who is convinced we have a better squad this year, where the hell is the evidence for this? Not through performance here certainly, not through being greats at other clubs. At best our squad is full of a lot of POTENTIAL for the first time in years, but the problem with that is often in football (not just Villa) potential is never realised and we have taken a hell of a gamble on so much potential. Having a foreign name, being signed from a foreign team and being young doesn't mean they're good! Currently I'd prefer to still see Cleverley and Delph in our midfield! In fact, most of our better players this season have been players who were here before Sherwood. I'd bet last years XI would beat our current XI, if only because of Benteke!

People will always blame the manager, especially the more casual fan. And when I mean casual, I don't mean they're not passionate, just the sort of fan who believes a good work ethic and a good team is still all you need. Times have changed, you need to look deeper than that these days but still few do. Arguably most managers are inconsequential to the teams success, working within a window of maybe five places in the league. The real difference between teams is investment and wages, and we severely lack in both departments. Adovocaat is a massive name, but he was never going to turn Sunderland in to title contenders, a manager will always be constrained by the ambition and funds of the club. And currently we have zero ambition and evidently zero funds. No manager we can get will mean we won't find relegation year on year. I firmly believe that. Get Mourinho in and we'd still figh relegation. That doesn't mean it makes no impact, some managers would relegate us, others would keep us up but all will face this fight until Lerner invests or leaves.

I understand your logic, but thats what we keep doing and it is taking us nowhere. How can anyone be sure, that if the other problems are removed, Tim Sherwood might not be one. How many managers do we crash and burn?..... we are getting through them like kamikaze pilots. Quite. Theview of every single pundit and football journalist is the same.....is every one of them Sherwoods mate ? Us, Sunderland, Newcastle, are going round in circles with fans attacking manager after manager, whilst in each case the owners remain the same. It's a great shame that each Manager since O Neill has had certain clear faults ( although crucially all different faults to each other) and therefore each time had enough people against them to make them the target. There is one place and one place only the fans should target, and that is the owner, and the method of attack should be, simply, to stop going. The only thing money understands is money. No great loss to stop going anyway ! Agree, other than the not going part - I'll always go. But you're one of the few people that recognise continually blaming a hand tied manager isn't the solution. It's an easy target and Lerner loves knowing he's avoiding all the stick by placing his newest sacrificial lamb in charge. Nothing will change until he invests or sells. But I take a little solace in the fact that at least this time Sherwood won't go quietly. Lerner's made a mistake there - Sherwood will turn the focus on the board as will all his mates in the media. That reason alone is almost enough to hope he gets sacked! I've always maintained changing managers is kind of pointless when you're just looking to survive, the quality needed is much of a muchness and depends more on the quality of the players. I don't judge Sherwood, we'll probably never know what he's capable of here. But sack him, like people screamed for Lambert's head, and you'll appease the masses for another 6 to 12 months before we're all back here again bemoaning the 'rubbish' manager who's in the same situation.

Lerner says he wants to sell, maybe he even does to some degree, but currently he is all talk. It's easy to say he wants to sell the club but we have little evidence that this is a serious statement. It's well noted that clubs aren't selling easily but simply saying he wants to sell isn't good enough for me to give him a free ride because he said he wants to go. He might be asking too much, he might be adding too much debt, he might be adding all sorts of caveats. I'm not sure he's a motivated seller at all, but saying he's happy to sell is an easy way of preventing 'Lerner Out' protests - it just needs rewording. My main issue with Lerner isn't what he HAS done, it's what he IS doing. I accept mistakes will happen but it is the intention behind them. I can accept bad choices for CEO or managers or players, that happens. What I can not accept is the continual strangulation of support and finances. I firmly believe that Lerner is not only not investing any further but now using the money the club earns to lessen his own losses. I can't believe we are the only club so badly run that we still have to struggle to find funds for purchases outside player sales and that the wages have beeded cutting again. If we are not healthly in profit this season then I'd be shocked. Other than debts (of Lerner's making) we have an incredibly cheap starting XI transfer fee wise and an incredibly cheap wage structure now - I suspect a few of our new contracts to Baker, Clark etc have seen them take wage cuts too. Where is all the money going now? How can other teams (like WBA) be outspending us on fees and wages still? It's been years since the significant overspend of MON. I think Lerner is getting a really easy time of it and I'm not sure why. Being absent and saying you want to sell is not enough to excuse him! Regardless of what people think of him, Collymore is right to put the spotlight on the board rather than the revolving door that is becoming our 'failed' managers. It amazes me that people can't see a little bit deeper than the easy targets of players and managers to see that they are just a symptom of the real problems at this club. It's not Westwood's fault he's a mediocre player, it's a symtom of buying cheap from low divisions and paying cheap wages. It's not Ayew's fault he's taking a while to settle, it's a symptom of buying lots of cheap foreign players as a gamble. It's not Gabby's fault he's still first choice striker, it's a symptom of not investing modern amounts in decent strikers. They're all trying their best. Fundamentally we don't have the funds to replace them with better players. It's also not Houllier, McLeish, Lambert or Sherwood's fault they are given such ever restrictive budgets and parameters to work within. I'm sure some are better than others but really, with the investment that is coming from Lerner, the truth of the matter is our ceiling is about 15th at a push. It's not a surprise that the worst team in the division to survive last year is struggling again after losing their best players, investing very little net to replace them, chancing their arm on foreign gambles and once again reducing the wages. I'm amazed we're not bottom. Lerner just wants survival. That's not good enough.

I'd never want Villa to lose a match BUT occasionally I can see the benefit of getting a kicking rather than a narrow defeat... So, whilst I personally have no strong desire to see Sherwood sacked, I could prefer to lose 6-0 than just 1-0 if it caused a change for the 'greater good'. So I'm somewhere in the middle of the voting options. No to wanting to lose but yes to losing really badly rather than marginally.

I still believe there will be no changes in manager until at least February. Firstly that would mean Sherwood would have survived nearly a year (still short for a Villa manager on average) and overseen approximately 40 games (still amongst lowest we've ever had from a manager) but, most crucially, it'll mean any new manager would not be able to ask for cash as transfer window would be closed.

Exactly this. Ultimately every decision is based purely on money above any other considersation. We would not consider sacking Sherwood if he could guarantee 17th, that's all Lerner wants. I believe we largely got Sherwood because he was unattached and therefore cheaper than the like of Moyes. If Lerner believes a change needs to be made to secure our Premier League status then he will go with the cheapest choice rather than the best choice, of that I'm sure. So he'll find the list of unattached coaches and try to find the best of that lot. Even if Klopp or Mourinho had a £1m release fee Lerner wouldn't be interested.

Exactly this. Ultimately every decision is based purely on money above any other considersation. We would not consider sacking Sherwood if he could guarantee 17th, that's all Lerner wants. I believe we largely got Sherwood because he was unattached and therefore cheaper than the like of Moyes. If Lerner believes a change needs to be made to secure our Premier League status then he will go with the cheapest choice rather than the best choice, of that I'm sure. So he'll find the list of unattached coaches and try to find the best of that lot. Even if Klopp or Mourinho had a £1m release fee Lerner wouldn't be interested.