jackbauer24

I DARE someone to say it's just a case of our team clicking and having confidence!! How bloody obvious do you need it to be before you just accept there is absolutely no quality in this team? In fact Gana in particular showed how absolutely devoid of any talent he is today, there really is no hope for him. Bacuna, Clark, Westwood and Gestede aren't good enough. Why are ALL of them being outmuscled for every ball in every part of the pitch?! No fight at all. Bunn - 6 - Did OK Richards - 5 - Goodish first half, then the niggling injury and disappeared, too regularly outmuscled Okore - 5 - Outmuscled constantly, won't attack aerial balls and lets them bounce inviting issues, but good positionally. Clark - 4 - Woeful control, no composure, getting a touch on the ball is seen as a success for him even if he does put it straight back in danger zone. Richardson - 4 - Normal really, awful touch and control, can't pass but works hard. Just severely deficient of talent. Any talent. Gana - 3 - Awful to start with then got worse as the match carried on, his touch and control is one of the worst on the team. A few attacking runs in to nowhere. Westwood - 5 - Sprayed the ball around (sideways) ok but again poor touch. Soft penalty but easily given. Bacuna - 4 - Does this guy have a position? Does he care?! Lazy balls, simple passes missed, can beat a man then do nothing with it. Gil - 7 - MOM but still pushed off the ball easily and doesn't seem in tune with any other player on the pitch Sinclair - 5 - Lively but limited. Once again can only do it for one half before disappearing completely. Takes too long to shoot too. Gestede - 3 - I'm told he's good in the air, where's the evidence for that?! Doesn't win headers, can't hold up ball, can't pass and doesn't attack crosses. Veretout, Lyden, Ayew - limited chance to do anything. Just finish the season, there is no hope when our best X1 (nearly) still can't nick a win against a League Two team. Not though effort or tactics but simply because there is no quality! Happily sell all off the starters today but doubt they're worth £11m together.

I would acknowledge that N'Zogbia doesn't try. So he's been dropped. I'd recognise Grealish was getting lazy so he was dropped. I'd admit that Gabby is work shy so he's been dropped. But the ones the manager is putting forward are trying. They're just not very good.

Shouting at the players is like shouting at a bunch of underperforming kids - they're trying their hardest but it's not good enough. Maybe you'll fire some up, maybe you'll knock some more confidence out of them but it won't achieve much at all. Abusing them for not being good enough is pointless. I could see an argument if it was effort but most people recognise it's quality. Or you could shout at the new manager. Who hasn't had any say on signings and wasn't able to bring his own support staff with him. Who is being asked by the fans to be magically able to turn awful players in to good ones. Abuse him for not being able to build a solid building out of two twigs and a bunch of sloppy mud. OR... MAYBE, LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE! Clearly the person who is responsible for giving the manager (past and present) the meagre funds resulting in low quality players is to be blamed. The person who has 100% focus on cutting costs above all other considerations. The person who makes bad decision after bad decision and doesn't have the decency to even acknowledge or explain his shortcomings. That video is depressing. How do these people not see where the real blame lies? How can they not see that even with Mourinho, SAF and Guardiola working together this team still wouldn't win games? I believe the players are trying their best but aren't good enough. I believe Garde is trying his best but doesn't have the tools to do his job so any evaluation of him is flawed. I believe Lerner doesn't care, doesn't try and therefore ALL the blame is his.

Two quick answers to two repeated questions; How can Lerner be worse than Ellis? Because he has/had the means both personally and in this era of money in football to find it comparatively easy not to get us relegated. Even a below average amount of planning and common sense means some clubs genuinely are too big to be relegated when money is so awash in the league as it is now. We should by rights be miles ahead of at least half the league on income and expenditure and therefore success. It's a harder to fail now than it was in the 80s yet Lerner's done it. Isn't it better to stick with the devil you know? To me, I always find this an odd thought process - if your life is awful do you just accept it because it could be worse? If you're getting beaten up by your partner do you stay with them because a future one might murder you?! No, you fight for change. It MIGHT turn out worse but if you hate where you are then there is little to lose. Any change in any walk of life is a gamble, partner, job, new car! But if you don't like something you don't look for the tiniest crumbs of positives to give you an excuse because the chance is there is something worse. But maybe you stayed with your first partner, are still in the same job, never moved house... change is scary...

As some will know, I'm often the most pessimistic on here and saw this scenario developing ages ago. However I would also place myself in the relatively optimistic of at least competing for promotion next year group, with a couple of caveats. The basis for the slight optimism, despite all the unknowns, is we definitely will be a big fish in a little pond, at least for the first year. The size of the club, the parachute payments and the fact we're run on such a shoestring already with relegation clauses in everywhere means we shouldn't get caught off guard in a financial way. We then have a small group of players who should be in the Premier League but might well stay with us (Veretout, Okore and Amavi) a small group who are perfectly suited to the division (Westwood, Gestede) and a small group of underexperienced players who, if we can keep them, can develop with us (Grealish, Traore). Furthermore the likes of Sinclair and Gabby, whilst useless in the Premier League, shouod cause lots of problems in the Championship. The caveat though is that is dependent on no further cost cutting (I already think we work with Championship budgets as Lerner is still punishing us for his overspend five years ago) and we recruit reasonably in this window and the next with further cheap gambles along the line of Amavi, Ayew, Veretout. Then we will also be directly responsible for our own youngsters too, rather than loaning them out. The likes of Baker need to prove useful to us next year or be sold. However the biggest worry for me is getting promoted quickly in a weird way. Get back up with no investment, still on silly wages, still trying to act like a Championship club and we'll just become a yo-yo club. I worry we aren't going to rebuild as such but that our club size mixed with the penny pinching will mean we're too big for the Championship but too small for the Premier League and will bounce up and down until the parachute payments lose their impact and we drop permanently. Coming back up is less of an issue for me than rebuilding properly. I'd rather a few years out if that initiates change than come back up immediately but be running the same.

I bloody hope so! I really can't underestimate how much I want to be wrong - I spend thousands on this club every year but it just felt so obvious to me. Take a bad team, take away the quality, add gambles. In its simplest form we were always likely to be "attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis..."

It will make zero difference. But then again I'd rather spend 30 seconds signing something that will make no difference than writing a post on here telling other peope not to bother. Especially if I agree with the sentiment. Signed.

I was under the impression, and I'm not sure where I got this from but it might have been implied somewhere, that Lambert signed a new contract which was beneficial to him but also added the reduced severance deal should we drop in to the relegation zone. So suited and benefitted both parties. He was sacked shortly after we dropped in to the relegation zone for the first time. To me, if true, this is clever business by Mr. Fox. But still on the fence about him in general.

I hate being right... no, in fact I was too optimistic. I thought 19th in early August. Now that seems like a pipe dream!

I hope he DOES get involved in another sports team - Birmingham City. He brought a massive club like Villa to its knees and in the worst state its been in at least generation with the worst records in our history - imagine what he could do to a tiny club like BC, they'd be in administration within 12 months and out of existence in 18! He's a club killer, we need him touring the country!

That's not what most people are claiming though. We're not blaming Lerner for other's failures, we're blaming him for not giving the people the right tools to do the job. The more accurate metaphor would be "would you blame somebody at work for ******* up if they were asked to produce a complex database just using an abacus and a piece of paper?" Quite clearly the ones at the top haven't given them the tools to do the job, we actually don't know how good or bad they are at it if they don't have a chance. In fact I'd say Lerner has been lucky that a number of people still think it's as simple as getting a good manager and he can make awful players world beaters. I've always been of the view that Lambert, Sherwood, Garde have taken more flak than they deserve because they simply don't have the tools to do the job. Arguably O'Neill was our worst manager in Lerner's era as he did have the tools and failed. Lambert is increasingly looking like he was undervalued (although I'd agree with view the job got on top of him) and Garde can do nothing about making awful players good. As for the players, very few don't try. N'Zogbia perhaps but successive managers have dropped him. The rest try 95% of the time but simply aren't good enough. Worse still they can't be replaced as we can't afford them. Whist Everton can buy Lennon and Cleverley (inc wayes) we're stuck with gambles which will take time to settle and Championship players. Everton tick over, we drop like a stone. It's not complicated - buy quality, get results. Buy gambles or lower quality and you don't know what you'll get but the odds are against you. Lerner doesn't get enough blame in my view.

If you accept we're down then actually we could look at this window completely differently. I think that Villa should go the whole hog on their current philosophy and use the rest of the season to bed the new signings in, which will almost inevitably mean even worse results but maybe a tiny bit of hope for the future There is an argument that we bought a number of 'moneyball' players that might well eventually come good, cost pittance (certainly wages) and we can sell for a profit. The main problem being we bought too many of them so that the settling in period destroyed our league status. Certainly could be the case for Veretout and Ayew. Amavi looked good too. So maybe, if you decide the players were good enough and it was just the settling in period that was the issue, or the lack of experience in this league/ country we should go out there and get the 'rest' of the team. I'm talking 6/7/8 players. Players from other leagues, ones that won't be in high demand, ones that will still see Villa as a good step even if we are relegated and then give them the rest of the season to acclimatise to the country, the league and each other. I think an ambitious Championship team would have had a chance signing most of summer signings so now, as we have nothing to lose, is the time to finish the job. Guzan, Richards, Lescott, Hutton, Sanchez, Richardson, Clark out - wages, age, quality. N'zogbia released anyway. Gabby given ultimatum, but maybe, just maybe, his pride for himself and Villa may come back if he's a bigger fish in a smaller pond. Sell Gana (hasn't made grade) sell or release Cole, Sissokho, Senderos, Sinclair and any other experienced but not involved players. Kids promoted to first team to get more homegrown players. Don't rebuild in the summer. Rebuild now and use what is now a waste of a season as our extended preseason. Do all our business now. Keeper RB CB Okore Amavi MF Veretout MF Ayew Gil/Traore/Grealish ST Subs: Gabby (in hope), Gestede (for Championship record) and homegrown players. Cheap wages, solid philosophy, 7 month preseason. What's to lose?

Except he did brief the media. Said we needed more quality and to win a few games we'll need one, two or three players. But kinda wish it was a true story, but doubt any of them care that much.

It really isn't rocket science. I genuinely don't understand how there is this much anger at surprise at this stage of the season. Not just the last five years but even if you take this season in isolation it was always incredibly likely this was going to happen. This isn't a told you so reply, I wish I was wrong, but it was plainly obvious this was going to happen so my screaming, shouting and anger came much earlier in the season. I'm firmly in the acceptance stage. I said on September 1st we hadn't recruited well enough. I watched a every game and said Sherwood was not the biggest problem. I said in October this squad was living up to my fears and would not win another game without new players. I said in November that Garde might get a few draws but neither he, or anyone else, could get this team up the league. It's been painfully obvious for months and months. That's ignoring the fact we've been decreasing our quality and investment year on year. Fox said Sherwood wasn't getting enough from the players. I'd love to know if he's deluded enough to still think this. This isn't defending Sherwood, this is attacking our squad quality and, in turn, Lerner's investments. Sherwood had 10 games and got 4pts against arguably harder teams, Garde has had 9 games and still only 4pts. It shows that drawing conclusions on who is a better manager is pointless from this bunch of players. They aren't good enough, never will be. If you're genuinely shocked at the current state of affairs then what have you been watching?! Is your love of Aston Villa that blinding? There was songs today against Lerner but they should have started when the last transfer window closed. Quite obviously we're down. There is no point buying new players this window, we might as well save the cash and then use it to replace any departures we either chose, or are forced in to, in the summer. Money will remain tight, so save every penny now, see out the season and see if we can rebuild in the Championship. As it stands I think we have a lower Playoff quality squad. And keeping players like Gabby and Gestede would be a nightmare in this division but may prove very useful in the Championship. Our biggest problems lie in midfield - quality (Veretout perhaps) will leave and Gana, Gil, Traore and Bacuna will not cope either mentally and/or physically. For what it's worth I do think we will beat the lowest ever total, even if just narrowly. I doubt we'll get to 20 points though. But without a few players (which I've said above I don't think it's actually worth buying) then we will not win another game this season unless it is a complete fluke of a goal towards the end of a game. But I'll still be back at VP next season. There is nothing that Lerner can do that will make me give up on Villa, even if I have given up on our team. We could be in League 2 and I'd still have my season ticket. More fool me perhaps. Unfortunately I believe this is just the start of more bad times to come. We have not reached the bottom of our pit if Lerner stays.

The 'official' Death List has 50 people on it and last year (2015) got a joint record of 14 which is quite a hit rate. The new list has been published for 2016 and I think we'll recognise the guy in 26th... www.deathlist.net

I'm not going to defend Sherwood but some of the blame IS ridiculous. I don't care how bad a manager you are, there is no way any manager can have such an influence so many months after he's departed! I don't think it's possible to destroy a teams mindset to such a degree that there is no recovery. People are using a weak link to make them feel better about what remains - the players. Sherwood may well have been a big problem but people must see now that the players simply aren't good enough and that's biggest issue. Our current manager can't even get a win out of this bunch, Sherwood isn't so admired in the footballing world that any tactics or words he used on our players have destroyed them forever!

It is as difficult to compare Chairman from different eras as it is players. Messi or Pele... However, whilst I accept it's not cut and dry, Ellis made lots of mistakes but finally left us with zero debt, in the top division and sold us comparatively cheaply considering cost of clubs. Lerner will be leaving us millions of pounds in debt, in a lower division and will be looking to sell us above market value in all likelihood. The Premier League era has been going since 92. That's not the full story but is a bloody long time. Ellis 'achieved' two cups and some reasonable league finishes interspersed with relegation worries. Lerner has achieved nothing and more bad seasons than good. Lerner wins on character perhaps, maybe he even respects our history more but in my eyes, Ellis is the better Chairman/ owner. I don't think we would have been relegated from the league in this day and age under his ownership. Neither are great, but Lerner is far worse than Ellis in my eyes.

Last season we were the worst team to survive. We then replaced; Delph with Gana (considerable downgrade) Cleverley with Veretout (marginal downgrade at moment, maybe in future it won't be) Benteke with Gestede (considerable downgrade) Vlaar with Richards (much the same, both either great or awful and getting on a bit and subject to injuries) Weimann with Ayew (considerable upgrade) Baker (loan) with Lescott (again, much the same, either invisible or a disaster) and then Traore who is almost an addition to the squad. All the other signings don't, or can't (Amavi), play. Fundamentally we didn't replace Hutton, Sanchez or Richardson at all. So there, to me, is no debate that this squad is considerably worse than the squad that was awful last season. Which is why I find any debate about managers kind of pointless - football fans generally only recognise a manager as being good if they're getting results and I maintain that is IMPOSSIBLE with this squad of players. It was over the second we didn't improve the squad. Even if you want to argue some of the players were good signings, you'd struggle to say they are better than what left with a straight face. It always amazes me that people can't see past 'bad players getting bad results = bad manager' - no manager could get this squad safe.

I almost envy those who still have hope! How the hell do you do it? Is it complete and utter faith or is it just denial? Forget about how far behind we are, how many points we need to average etc, what exactly have you seen from this team that gives you even an inkling of hope that we can win a game, never mind ten?! I'm genuinely interested on a psychological level, where does this hope come from? I thought even the most optimistic of fans would need a shred of evidence for their beliefs. We have one of the worst squads we've ever had (in our history), we're in the midst of an ongoing record for most games without a win, we're heavily in debt to a Chairman who is at best uninterested and are on track to be relegated mathematically by Easter as one of the worsf teams in the league's history. I'm cursed by being overly analytical and look at the probabilities of everything, unfortunately this year I saw this was the liklihood the second the transfer window closed and is why I started this thread. It was always more likely than not that we were going to seriously struggle. I think Sherwood got too much blame and people are prematurely jumping on Garde now and it's unfair on both - the players simply aren't good enough. So where do you get your shreds of evidence for any positivity?

Richardson, Clark, Hutton, Gana not Premier League quality Guzan, Westwood, Richards, Sinclair suitable for a lower league Premier League for squad rotation Veretout and Ayew good enough for the league if given time to settle I wonder why any manager can't get this squad to midtable safety... absolute mystery....

Look through the eyes of an experienced 'neutral' player. You've got three possible motivations; money (most), chances of success/ Euros (a lot) and the underperforming and just want to play (a few). We will be unwilling/unable to compete with few in the money bracket, we can offer far less than other struggling teams in the chance to shine bracket so will have to look largely at that small window of just wanting to play. Otherwise it's unknowns/untested again. Remy, Falcao are nice dreams but fall in to money bracket (wages plus possible sign on if permanent) so never going to happen. Austin will either wait 6 months for the money motivation of choose a struggling team that have a better chance of survival, Newcastle being obvious choice. Naismith seems to fit in to that rare last category of just wanting to play so is most realistic. I think a few people might be disappointed with our transfer business. Even if Lerner does sanction moves, it's going to be incredibly hard to convince anyone looking for money or the chance to shine to come to Villa. As a neutral player you'd choose safer bet of Newcastle, Sunderland, Swansea even arguably Bournemouth.

It was our best performance of the season yesterday against an injury hit midtable team at home. And we still couldn't win. Not because of the referee, not because of the tactics, not because of bad luck, not because we didn't 'click' but simply because we're not good enough. We don't have enough quality. People can talk about numbers, form, runs, confidence, improvements all they like, we're never all going to agree. There are, almost admirable, people on here who will truly believe it's possible until it becomes mathematically not. There are others who will feel we're doomed even if we win five in a row as it'd be unsustainable form. But to me, form comes from quality and we have very little. Something impressive needs to happen in the January transfer window to make me change my mind.

We said that against Watford... then Newcastle... eventually we just have to recognise that it's too late. It'll be Norwich that'll 'kick start' our season after this game..

Sorry to go against the grain here but we need to keep him. Bar an absolute shock, we'll be in the Championship next year and I think he could do a good job in that division. He may be finished at this level but he'd be useful to keep around in that league - if nothing else hopefully a bit of pride might come back to him if he can get us back up at the first attempt.

The whole Guzan argument again. Personally I don't see him as a major part of our issues. Unless someone has stats that indicates his saves to shot ratio is far worse than I imagine then I'd guess he's quite solidly a midtable goalkeeper playing for a very bad team. I'm all for upgrades across the squad but I'd say that the obvious targets would have a far greater impact on our results - Sanchez, a LB, Gestede, Gana and even Lescott and Richardson. They're the 'easy' targets - goalkeeper is not a priority for me at all, I'd be looking at at least four or five other positions before a goalkeeper.