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Our defensive positioning is going to kill us this season


Enda

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For all the talk about how dodgy our defending was at times, how many real clear cut chances did arsenal have ? Bearing in mind that they are a top 4 side and playing at home, they probably only had 2 clear cut chances apart from the goal ( Rosicky and Cazorla ) ?

 

This is a fair point. Things worked out for us yesterday. But did you not also get the feeling we were going to concede before the second goal?

 

There were three examples that I thought were fairly bad yesterday.

1. The shambles with Luna trying to usher it out of play.

2. There was one ball in the second half that flew over the head of Luna and Walcott picked it up.

3. I think it was a corner (again) where Clark got a block on a shot near Guzan's left post. Vlaar was standing right beside him. Arsenal had a free man near the penalty spot.

 

Some people (not necessarily you, Biskitt) say it's wrong to criticise defending when we won, or that a clean sheet means we defended well. Both of these claims are bonkers.

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The whole back four (five, actually, including Guzan) looked ropey in the first half. I thought Vlaar looked nervous even in the tunnel before the team came out, which didn't fill me with confidence. Surprisingly (for me anyway), it was Clark coming on that seemed to have a calming influence, and in the second half Vlaar, Luna and Guzan all seemed markedly more assured and confident and most important, CALM.

 

This is what I find encouraging, though. A year ago, we would not have held out for a draw, let alone secured a win. We threw away a lot of points late in the game last season, we all remember that. Yesterday, our defense kept us in it in the second half, although Arsenal had several dangerous attacks and good chances. It wasn't just Guzan with excellent saves, both Vlaar and Clark had several crucial blocks, and Luna barely let Walcott out of his sight. Lowton didn't have his best game by the high standards he set for himself last season, but he made some great interceptions. Both Gabby and Weimann were excellent in tracking back and helping out the defense.

 

This is improvement. There's still a ways to go, but this is improvement.

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I know that they were chasing the game at the end but if people want to highlight poor defending,they need look no further that Arsenal for our 3rd goal.

 

And if you want to be super critical,you would criticise the way Gabby was allowed to burst through them for the first pen.

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For all the talk about how dodgy our defending was at times, how many real clear cut chances did arsenal have ? Bearing in mind that they are a top 4 side and playing at home, they probably only had 2 clear cut chances apart from the goal ( Rosicky and Cazorla ) ?

This. And two of the 3 chances were down to vlaar getting beaten, which probably will stop happening or he'll get dropped

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The biggest threat to any defence is movement and pace.

 

Arsenal have movement and pace as do Chelsea in fact the top 6 usually have.... Wednesday will be another big test.

 

We too have pace, not so sure on the movement just yet, not in the same way as them.

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It's damn okay to be nervous in the Emirates on Opening Day, I'll forgive that of a young D that really didn't have a reason to be confident about themselves.

 

Guzan is looking more and more confident, and with Luna scoring I'm hoping the D grows as a group knowing they're not just there to fill out an XI in favor of an attacking team.

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I think it'd be best to judge the state of our defence after 4-5 games rather than after the first one. Takes a bit of time to get going.

 

For what it's worth, I think we'll be better than last season defensively but still not what you'd describe as watertight.

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The whole back four (five, actually, including Guzan) looked ropey in the first half. I thought Vlaar looked nervous even in the tunnel before the team came out, which didn't fill me with confidence. Surprisingly (for me anyway), it was Clark coming on that seemed to have a calming influence, and in the second half Vlaar, Luna and Guzan all seemed markedly more assured and confident and most important, CALM.

 

This is what I find encouraging, though. A year ago, we would not have held out for a draw, let alone secured a win. We threw away a lot of points late in the game last season, we all remember that. Yesterday, our defense kept us in it in the second half, although Arsenal had several dangerous attacks and good chances. It wasn't just Guzan with excellent saves, both Vlaar and Clark had several crucial blocks, and Luna barely let Walcott out of his sight. Lowton didn't have his best game by the high standards he set for himself last season, but he made some great interceptions. Both Gabby and Weimann were excellent in tracking back and helping out the defense.

 

This is improvement. There's still a ways to go, but this is improvement.

 

 

I agree

 

but largely, you defend as a TEAM and attack as a TEAM.

 

We are undoubtedly improving and that result against Arsenal and Malaga was testimony to the improvement.

We still need to improve our control of the football, to help keep control of the game.

 

Arsenal, despite their singular goal was still dangerous mainly due to their quality play on the ball. Arsene Venger was right in his defence of the lack of transfer market activity when he said "that team was good enough to beat villa"...It was, but it didn't.

 

what some people forget is other attributes like doggedness, team spirit, youthful energy, effervescence, intensity, passion, will to win....was all in Villa's favour..in short Villa wanted it more than Arsenal.

 

some want to learn to give a bit of credit where its due.....on our doorstep.

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The whole back four (five, actually, including Guzan) looked ropey in the first half. I thought Vlaar looked nervous even in the tunnel before the team came out, which didn't fill me with confidence. Surprisingly (for me anyway), it was Clark coming on that seemed to have a calming influence, and in the second half Vlaar, Luna and Guzan all seemed markedly more assured and confident and most important, CALM.

 

This is what I find encouraging, though. A year ago, we would not have held out for a draw, let alone secured a win. We threw away a lot of points late in the game last season, we all remember that. Yesterday, our defense kept us in it in the second half, although Arsenal had several dangerous attacks and good chances. It wasn't just Guzan with excellent saves, both Vlaar and Clark had several crucial blocks, and Luna barely let Walcott out of his sight. Lowton didn't have his best game by the high standards he set for himself last season, but he made some great interceptions. Both Gabby and Weimann were excellent in tracking back and helping out the defense.

 

This is improvement. There's still a ways to go, but this is improvement.

 

 

I agree

 

but largely, you defend as a TEAM and attack as a TEAM.

 

We are undoubtedly improving and that result against Arsenal and Malaga was testimony to the improvement.

We still need to improve our control of the football, to help keep control of the game.

 

Arsenal, despite their singular goal was still dangerous mainly due to their quality play on the ball. Arsene Venger was right in his defence of the lack of transfer market activity when he said "that team was good enough to beat villa"...It was, but it didn't.

 

what some people forget is other attributes like doggedness, team spirit, youthful energy, effervescence, intensity, passion, will to win....was all in Villa's favour..in short Villa wanted it more than Arsenal.

 

some want to learn to give a bit of credit where its due.....on our doorstep.

 

 

I agree with this.

 

One thing that was very noticeable yesterday day was for the first 20mins we were defending more a little more zonally and hence slower to close the ball down. We seemed to get a bit more of a grip with the pace of the game then which was pretty frantic.We started to close the ball down quicker and became more physical which I think really rattled Arsenal.

 

Vlaar and Lowton both got pulled out of position on numerous occassions especially Lowton who I thought was our poorest player yesterday. Luna although positionally poor early just seemed to get better and better and keeping Walcott quiet is no easy task. Guzan was shaky early but a beast as usual as the game wore on.

 

If we continue with the high energy closing the ball down with good movement I think we wont do too badly this season Although it will be interesting to se how we deal with crosses and set-pieces.

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Our best front 3 are Benteke, Gabby & Weimann.

 

Anyone disagree?

 

Okay, assuming that the majority agree with the above conclusion what about the back 4?

 

Right now I would go Luna, Vlaar Okore Lowton.

 

However, in reality the jury is still out on Okore & to a degree Luna too. However given Luna's performance against Theo Walcott yesterday  I could  go Luna, Vlaar, Baker, Lowton.

 

Next up you have an outstanding & mature performance from Ciaran Clark yesterday when he came on for the injured Baker so do we go Luna Vlaar Clark, Lowton?

 

Or try these combinations:

 

Luna Clark Okore Lowton

 

Luna Clarke Baker Lowton

 

Luna Okore Baker Lowton

 

I'll stop there because I still have the option of integrating Chris Herd, a player that I highly rate, into those combinations & I haven't forgotten about Bennett either.

 

The point I am making, if it isn't already obvious, is that we know our best attack, but we definitely don't know our best defence just yet & it will definitely take us at least 10-15 games to find that out.

 

I'm sure we will work it out eventually & obviously the sooner the better.

 

ps - We don't yet know either if Steer is better at shot stopping & organising his defence etc etc than `Super Goose.`

 

The bottom line is surely this - The jury is still out on the defence until we know our best back 4.

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By season's end I would not be at all surprised to see

 

Lowton - Okore - Clark/Baker - Luna

 

In fact, I might be rather surprised *not* to see this as our first choice by then (or first and second choice, given I'm not sure on whether Clark or Baker just yet...). Before yesterday I would have thought definitely Baker for the Left CB spot, given a choice between him and Clark, but PL has given new contract to both, and Clark did definitely show promise against what is on paper at least a decent attack.

 

Bottom line for me is that if Okore is half the player we think he is and if Clark and Baker continue to improve as they are seeming to and stay injury free, I just can't see a good argument for Vlaar being in our first choice eleven by the end of the season. And I do really believe that over the next two or three seasons that combination could become an excellent defensive unit. I'm sure we'll have a defensively leaky few games this season, but I also think that if we can keep the team together next season we'll have relatively little talk about defensive worries.

 

(Man, a lot of if's in that sentence... if I hedged my bets anymore they'd be covered in badger shit...)

Edited by Intercourse_The_Penguin
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I think Lambert would love for Clark to put in good enough performances that justify continued selection. He really likes more complete players, for instance Guzan over Given and Benteke over Bent, and Clark is probably the best cb in posession at Villa. So if he plays the same level with the other centerbacks, his ability on the ball and the extra potential he has because of that ability will get him selected. Could be Okore and Clark in the middle by the end of the year imo. 

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Whoever we play I think we will concede 3 or 4 on Wednesday, we are still very vulnerable at the back.

I think Weimann may be sacrificed for another less offensive midfielder to pack out midfield a bit more for the big away games, he wasn't massively effective on Saturday but I think he could be effective as a sub.

Edited by thunderball
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For all the talk about how dodgy our defending was at times, how many real clear cut chances did arsenal have ? Bearing in mind that they are a top 4 side and playing at home, they probably only had 2 clear cut chances apart from the goal ( Rosicky and Cazorla ) ?

This is a fair point. Things worked out for us yesterday. But did you not also get the feeling we were going to concede before the second goal?

There were three examples that I thought were fairly bad yesterday.

1. The shambles with Luna trying to usher it out of play.

2. There was one ball in the second half that flew over the head of Luna and Walcott picked it up.

3. I think it was a corner (again) where Clark got a block on a shot near Guzan's left post. Vlaar was standing right beside him. Arsenal had a free man near the penalty spot.

Some people (not necessarily you, Biskitt) say it's wrong to criticise defending when we won, or that a clean sheet means we defended well. Both of these claims are bonkers.

Teams like Arsenal will always create chances at home because they have such good offensive players. That Arsenal team managed to score 3 in 2 games against Bayern last year and I rate them as the best defensive side in Europe.

Don't get me wrong, our defense still makes me very nervous and I get your point about some of the sloppy individual errors but I think you have to take into account it was the first day of the season, Luna's first game for us and also the language barrier too. Arsenals defenders who are all established internationals made far more mistakes than us too !

As someone excellently pointed out earlier in the thread, there was definitely times where we were a bit cynical and I was really pleased to see that as it shows signs that we are getting more "know how" and hopefully becoming more difficult to beat. The midfield seems to be offering a bit more protection and aggression than last season as well ?

What was most pleasing is that we restricted them to just 4 shots on target all game ( same number as us ) so you couldn't really argue that it was a daylight robbery or that we didn't deserve something from the game. If you compate this to our best away win last season ( the 3-1 at Anfield ), Liverpool had 17 shots on target that day and I remember thinking that we'd been a bit fortunate with some of our defending that game ( and obviously scored some great goals too ).

I don't ever think we're gonna have one of the best defences in the league simply because of the way we play but I definitely saw some signs of improvement on Saturday

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Never been convinced by vlaar, this season he will have to deliver something better otherwise i fear for him, nursey was saying how he heard lambert wasnt too impressed with him last year too. Lets see anyway, after 7-8 games we'll have played a range of teams and should have a good idea, i still think were vunerable there and probably easy to core against for a really ruthless team but as someone above said i dont think we'll be quite as bad as last season.

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Never been convinced by vlaar, this season he will have to deliver something better otherwise i fear for him, nursey was saying how he heard lambert wasnt too impressed with him last year too. Lets see anyway, after 7-8 games we'll have played a range of teams and should have a good idea, i still think were vunerable there and probably easy to core against for a really ruthless team but as someone above said i dont think we'll be quite as bad as last season.

 

The main problem with Vlaar is that he is injury prone & is especially prone to recurring calf problems.

 

His main strength is his leadership skills & the overall experience he brings to a seriously young squad that desperately requires nursing along at times. This leadership quality should not be over looked either & was never more  apparent than when he came back from injury last season as he was instrumental in solidifying & stabilising the defence & the team at a really crucial time of the campaign & his re-introduction played a major part in keeping us up.

 

I dread to think what would have happened had he not returned.

 

The important point is that he will miss games through injury & possible suspension this season so hopefully the purchase of Okore will prove to be the most astute transfer of the Summer a I really believe he is going to be a phenominal player for us once he acclimatises to the demands of the Premiership.

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  • 5 weeks later...

I'd love nothing more than to come on here and eat my words on September 1st, but I think we'll be bottom of the table with no points after the first three matches of the season.

 

Well, after four matches, I wasn't too far off :(

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I'd love nothing more than to come on here and eat my words on September 1st, but I think we'll be bottom of the table with no points after the first three matches of the season.

 

Well, after four matches, I wasn't too far off :(

 

 

Eat them bad boys up fella, and love it

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I'd love nothing more than to come on here and eat my words on September 1st, but I think we'll be bottom of the table with no points after the first three matches of the season.

 

Well, after four matches, I wasn't too far off :(

Well you were spot on about our ongoing defensive frailties, but any type of criticism on here and you get accused of being a negative moaning so and so.

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