2013 UEFA European Under-21 Football Championship

[Zatman]

Its a horridly run organisation when comes to youth set-up. they try but always seems to have problems.

 

They need a technical director to organise youth setup and a style of play to emulate for all levels. Could do a lot worse than Glenn Hoddle in the job even Gareth Southgate

[Genie]

 

Players fault according to Stuart Pearce, sure it is Stuart, sure it is.

 

After those 3 performances and that interview he simply can't stay in the job.

 

He has 23 wins in 30 in qualification games but just 4 in 15 when he gets to the finals, kind of says it all about his ability.

 

this is a man that signed Giorgias Samaras and played David James up front. 

 

Pearce is managerial mastermind

 

 

He certainly is. When manager of Man City he was offered the job as U21 coach for the England and whilst MC were concerned he assured them it was not that time consuming and could be done part-time.

 

Later he gets fired from his job at Man City and goes to the FA to convince them that the role of U21 coach should be full-time... and they agreed.

 

Genius.

[BOF]

Its a horridly run organisation when comes to youth set-up. they try but always seems to have problems.

 

They need a technical director to organise youth setup and a style of play to emulate for all levels. Could do a lot worse than Glenn Hoddle in the job even Gareth Southgate

They genuinely think they're doing their youngsters a favour by putting them in with the seniors and leaving them there. Let them train with them, fine. Give them an idea of the levels. But they're getting those at their clubs anyway. FTLOG let them back to the youths for the competitions. They learn far more that way in the long run. I wonder is the average age of the FA bigwigs still around 87.

[Jarpie]

The only thing I'll give him credit for is that interview after the Israel game. Yes it smacked of the kind of honesty that only comes with knowing you won't be around to have to explain yourself much longer, but he did speak sense and it's the kind of thing you'd ordinarily only hear in a dressing room. That when players are told something 10 times and they don't do it, it's them that should be defending those results. Pearce is clearly a shit manager but if players won't follow instructions then they've to look at themselves to some extent too.

Apart from all of that though, there are bigger problems. The England set-up is a poor one. They want success in major tournaments with the senior side while turning their nose up at under-age tournaments. Where exactly do they think these players gain the experience to compete in major international tournaments? The sooner they realise tournaments are as much about mentality as they are ability then they might start to progress. Meanwhile they're still convinced they're a major world force. They definitely should be and they could be if they did it right. But they're not. They're the very definition of a sleeping giant.

 

I think part of the problem at least in the senior team is the lack of motivational coaches and managers, and that coupled with the players without the right kind of mentality in the players, at least after Sven-Göran Eriksson the players have either looked to be disinterested, just going through the motions in the tournaments or have had the forced "We gotta succeed"-look on them. In 1990 and 1996 they looked to enjoy playing in big tournament, and even under Hoddle who isn't exactly the most 'normal' manager in 1998 players looked mentally much better than in 2010 and 2012 for example.

 

It does seem like players take big tournaments either as necessary evil or then they are under way too much pressure to succeed that playing becomes forced and not natural, and that's why national team would need manager who can motivate players and Woy isn't the right man for that job and neither were Cappello and McClaren.

 

When it comes to the U23/U21/etc team and national tournaments, I don't think players tend to care as they don't see them as important to win as they look up for league title, champions league, world- and european championships. Imo players not listening the instructions given by Pearce is because either they think instructions are shit, they don't care and/or they don't hold any respect toward Pearce, which doesn't surprise me.

[BOF]

It does seem like players take big tournaments either as necessary evil or then they are under way too much pressure to succeed that playing becomes forced and not natural, and that's why national team would need manager who can motivate players and Woy isn't the right man for that job and neither were Cappello and McClaren.

 

When it comes to the U23/U21/etc team and national tournaments, I don't think players tend to care as they don't see them as important to win as they look up for league title, champions league, world- and european championships. Imo players not listening the instructions given by Pearce is because either they think instructions are shit, they don't care and/or they don't hold any respect toward Pearce, which doesn't surprise me.

The problem is that the current setup at the English FA allows players to drop out of tournaments like this one. So yes, players who think it's a waste of time won't go. But that's wrong. It shouldn't be their decision to make. They have commitments to the national side and those commitments don't just start at senior level. IMO U21 should be the first level whereby participation is obligatory. That's the first thing that needs to change. Norway for example, had 4 players playing against England who normally represent the senior side. Imagine the difference of having Oxlade-Chamberlain, Phil Jones or a Jack Wilshere (injury notwithstanding) in that England side instead of Marvin Sordell. U21 players shouldn't be allowed to make those decisions for themselves in the same way that seniors can't. Whether they like it or not, they would be learning something while out there. And professional integrity means the better players - the ones who will achieve something in the game - will not just want to go through the motions. They would give their best so as not to have the result reflect badly on them.

[Jarpie]

 

It does seem like players take big tournaments either as necessary evil or then they are under way too much pressure to succeed that playing becomes forced and not natural, and that's why national team would need manager who can motivate players and Woy isn't the right man for that job and neither were Cappello and McClaren.

 

When it comes to the U23/U21/etc team and national tournaments, I don't think players tend to care as they don't see them as important to win as they look up for league title, champions league, world- and european championships. Imo players not listening the instructions given by Pearce is because either they think instructions are shit, they don't care and/or they don't hold any respect toward Pearce, which doesn't surprise me.

The problem is that the current setup at the English FA allows players to drop out of tournaments like this one. So yes, players who think it's a waste of time won't go. But that's wrong. It shouldn't be their decision to make. They have commitments to the national side and those commitments don't just start at senior level. IMO U21 should be the first level whereby participation is obligatory. That's the first thing that needs to change. Norway for example, had 4 players playing against England who normally represent the senior side. Imagine the difference of having Oxlade-Chamberlain, Phil Jones or a Jack Wilshere (injury notwithstanding) in that England side instead of Marvin Sordell. U21 players shouldn't be allowed to make those decisions for themselves in the same way that seniors can't. Whether they like it or not, they would be learning something while out there. And professional integrity means the better players - the ones who will achieve something in the game - will not just want to go through the motions. They would give their best so as not to have the result reflect badly on them.

 

 

Yeah, "If you don't put real effort in U21, you don't get to the national team either" should be the ethos and made to be the natural progress to get to the national team. I also think that the bad motivation and mood in the national team is rubbing off to the U21 side too...as some others have said english FA and national side would need a complete overhaul, I don't know how the FA youth set up works now but they should be very hands on with the youth set ups in the clubs from the youngest teams onward and try to aid bringing up the young players.

[BOF]

Yeah, "If you don't put real effort in U21, you don't get to the national team either" should be the ethos

The attitude that you show at that level would shine through and it doesn't take long for a player's attitude to become a known quantity. I'd say that already IS the ethos, but unfortunately because the players are allowed to pull out beforehand, they're not even getting to that stage. And (I hate to use him again but) players like Sordell (as an example) can be as great as they can possibly be in the U21s but, barring a miracle, England will never benefit from his experience because he'll never make the step up*.

* Even in his specific case, if he does step up, the logic still applies i.e. the replacement/stand-in U21 players

[mikeyp102]

Its a horridly run organisation when comes to youth set-up. they try but always seems to have problems.

They need a technical director to organise youth setup and a style of play to emulate for all levels. Could do a lot worse than Glenn Hoddle in the job even Gareth Southgate

Think that is what Ashworth has been appointed to do.. GS did have a role but he didn't enjoy working for the FA Edited June 14, 2013 by mikeyp102

[Jarpie]

 

Its a horridly run organisation when comes to youth set-up. they try but always seems to have problems.

They need a technical director to organise youth setup and a style of play to emulate for all levels. Could do a lot worse than Glenn Hoddle in the job even Gareth Southgate

Think that is what Ashworth has been appointed to do.. GS did have a role but he didn't enjoy working for the FA

 

 

Which I think is a bit of shame, GS probably suited for the job. I wouldn't be surprised if he left because of all the shit going on in FA.

[TRS-T]

I don't know why the FA is so scared of the Premier League clubs.

 

Spain called up Juan Mata for Euro 2012 AND the Olympics last summer.

 

I didn't hear Chelsea complaining.

 

We should have done the same with people like Phil Jones, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, and Martin Kelly who hardly played at Euro 2012.

 

And this season we should have let Oxlade-Chamberlain go the the under-21 Euros after the Ireland and Brazil friendlies.

 

He has hardly played this season. (barely 1000 minutes.)

Edited June 14, 2013 by TRS-T

[Rovers13]

Spain were dominant, but still seems harsh on Norway to concede at that moment.

[tarjei]

This Spanish side is just too good for this level. I recon they would probably outplay most senior sides in the world too. They're extremly well organized, much like Barca under Guardiola.

[Glarmorgan]

Went to see the Italy - Holland match yesterday. It will be interesting to see how the Italians will adjust themselves to the Spanish type of game. 

When playing Holland, the Italians took 20 minutes to learn. After this learning process - they just vanished the dutch. It was a very impressive defensive display which I enjoyed very much. Most of the crowd wanted Holland to win but I couldn't ignore the great way the Italians dealt with a more talented team than their own.

 

In regard to your England - if you'll keep looking at the staff to try and figure out the problem - you'll keep on raising false hopes. 

The U-21 team suffer the same problems as the senior team. First - the lack of creativity. No one beside that Redmond fella was able to do anything which is out of the ordinary. Most passes when sideways till that aimless long ball to Wickham up front and he showed nothing but physical skill. Even our mediocre side showed at least signs of personal technique when handling the ball, not to mention Spain or Holland.  The fact that our crappy national team managed to beat you is astounding. Most of the players don't play regularly for their teams. One centre half was an integral part of a relegated team while the others played for teams who managed to escape relegation on the last day of the season. The goalie is a substitute goalie for his team and the same goes for the right back. I can keep this going but this line of mediocre players looked just as good as the English players. If I was an Englishmen - this is something I could not accept.

 

Second - the vast amount of foreign players in the Premier League depletes the arsenal of really good English players, so if a Phil Jones can't play - his replacement is just not good enough and his probable future playing career for Brentford will be the proof of that.

[LondonLax]

Foreign players being in the premier league just doesn't was with me.

There is still the Championship which is mostly English players and that league is a similar quality to perhaps the Dutch or Belgium leagues.

It doesn't stop the Dutch (or Belgium now) from having a top national team even though their local league is the equivilent of the Championship and their handful of best players play in the other top leagues like the PL.

For some reason though the England managers would not look at form players from the Championship but the Dutch manager will pick players from the local league to boost the squad.

[Zatman]

it smacks of an easy excuse. If managers pick a player from Championship or an unheralded club they get stick in the media e.g Bothroyd and Kevin Davies getting called up.

 

e.g. Kevin Nolan should have got at least 10 ENgland caps in his career, Roy seems like he might change that way as he has given players like Osman a call up.

 

But through England squad now is players like Young, Jagielka, Lescott, Cahill, Baines who all played for lesser teams and were not really given a chance until got a transfer

[Glarmorgan]

The foreign players are not the sole problem. The lack of technical ability shown by the English players originates from the coaches working with them in younger age.

 

But you cannot ignore that these two are related - the Dutch or Belgian teams cannot rely on the deep pockets of someone to get a hold of high level players, so they HAVE TO raise them on their own. Standarde Liege or Anderlecht cannot spend 40 millions on a proven talent - so they invest a lot of resources in their younger teams. You see the results in the rising of the Belgium national team after years of mediocrity. 

Championship?  The prize of getting to the big money of the Premier League brings managers to loan 7 players from Italy or Spain. This leaves League One as the only place for English players to get their chance and the U-21  players, as I saw them - perfectly fit League One....

[AVFCforever1991]

Our players don't seem very tactically aware either, in terms of their position on the pitch and moving into space..

[BOF]

The foreign players are not the sole problem. The lack of technical ability shown by the English players originates from the coaches working with them in younger age.

 

But you cannot ignore that these two are related - the Dutch or Belgian teams cannot rely on the deep pockets of someone to get a hold of high level players, so they HAVE TO raise them on their own. Standarde Liege or Anderlecht cannot spend 40 millions on a proven talent - so they invest a lot of resources in their younger teams. You see the results in the rising of the Belgium national team after years of mediocrity. 

Championship?  The prize of getting to the big money of the Premier League brings managers to loan 7 players from Italy or Spain. This leaves League One as the only place for English players to get their chance and the U-21  players, as I saw them - perfectly fit League One....

That's pretty much on the money for me. If you then add in the FA allowing the actual talent to say no to the tournament then you've a recipe for failure. Just add a dinosaur like Stuart Pearce and you're good to go.

[Glarmorgan]

 

The foreign players are not the sole problem. The lack of technical ability shown by the English players originates from the coaches working with them in younger age.

 

But you cannot ignore that these two are related - the Dutch or Belgian teams cannot rely on the deep pockets of someone to get a hold of high level players, so they HAVE TO raise them on their own. Standarde Liege or Anderlecht cannot spend 40 millions on a proven talent - so they invest a lot of resources in their younger teams. You see the results in the rising of the Belgium national team after years of mediocrity. 

Championship?  The prize of getting to the big money of the Premier League brings managers to loan 7 players from Italy or Spain. This leaves League One as the only place for English players to get their chance and the U-21  players, as I saw them - perfectly fit League One....

That's pretty much on the money for me. If you then add in the FA allowing the actual talent to say no to the tournament then you've a recipe for failure. Just add a dinosaur like Stuart Pearce and you're good to go.

 

The fact that a player had the nerve to refuse a call-up is beyond my understanding. I recall, quite a long time ago, that 3 major Israeli players (one of them was Ronny Rozenthal) refused to play in a friendly against USSR due to insurance issues. They were expelled from playing for the national team for 3 or 4 years and they were the best we had. Stuart Pearce might be a crappy manager, but the lack of quality in the England team did not make his life any easier. I find it hard to believe that any other manager could do better with these players. Maybe beating Israel which was insignificant. Both Norway and Italy are much much better sides than England.

[BOF]

The fact that a player had the nerve to refuse a call-up is beyond my understanding. I recall, quite a long time ago, that 3 major Israeli players (one of them was Ronny Rozenthal) refused to play in a friendly against USSR due to insurance issues. They were expelled from playing for the national team for 3 or 4 years and they were the best we had. Stuart Pearce might be a crappy manager, but the lack of quality in the England team did not make his life any easier. I find it hard to believe that any other manager could do better with these players. Maybe beating Israel which was insignificant. Both Norway and Italy are much much better sides than England.

The reason they refuse the call-up is because they are already a part of the senior setup. That's the justification. So the step down is seen as; or deemed to be; an unnecessary hindrance. That's the mentality. The mentality that a player who is already capable of playing for the senior side couldn't possibly learn anything from a competitive tournament in the U21s. It's an arrogance that has meant that senior England sides have underperformed at finals tournaments for the past 23 years and IMO will continue to do so until there are changes.