HanoiVillan Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 leaving aside the pretty scummy way to 'protest' and potentially give the arsewipe some sort of perverted sympathy vote..... ....I simply can't imagine driving off without my kids. I genuinely hope / believe I'd stand and fight before I ran without my kids. The pub landlord (the actual one - not Al Murray) has denied his kids were there - says it was just Farage and his Mrs. Doesn't make the methodology any better but I struggle to have any sympathy. The guy is a colossal shithouse who has made his name on intolerance, division and mistrust and deserves all the shite he gets as a result. I'm less interested in the leaders, and more disturbed by the British people who adore them. Who are these people? How old are they? What do they want? What unites them? Where is their heartland? Which party is leaking supporters who turn to UKIP? To answer these questions in order, as it seems to me: Old white working-class men are the main group, All ages, but predominantly late middle-age, The 1950s to return (see chrisp's excellent post above), Not very much - in fact UKIP has been through at least three distinct phases (1st - anti-EU obsessive (1990s), 2nd - American-style libertarian influence (early noughties), 3rd - rightwing populist (late noughties on)) so different parts of the party have very different beliefs and they're basically a convenient flag for rightwing grumpies to salute more than a totally coherent party, Economically-suffering coastal towns in southern England and economically-suffering satellite towns in northern England, and Every party is leaking members to them, probably the Tories are fractionally worse off, but Labour are losing just as many votes to UKIP (the reason it seems less disastrous for Labour is that they're replacing many of those votes with ex-LibDems). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 leaving aside the pretty scummy way to 'protest' and potentially give the arsewipe some sort of perverted sympathy vote..... ....I simply can't imagine driving off without my kids. I genuinely hope / believe I'd stand and fight before I ran without my kids. The pub landlord (the actual one - not Al Murray) has denied his kids were there - says it was just Farage and his Mrs. Doesn't make the methodology any better but I struggle to have any sympathy. The guy is a colossal shithouse who has made his name on intolerance, division and mistrust and deserves all the shite he gets as a result. I don't have any sympathy with him, but at the same time he doesn't deserve to be chased out of a pub just because he's a prick with a lot of silly ideas. I've never understood this fascination by certain people (normally UAF types) who want to silence people like Farage through stuff like this. It doesn't work as it allows them to just play the victim card. Just let them speak and have their views challenged in open debate and they embarrass themselves in the end. I remember there was a bit uproar about Nick Griffin appearing on Question Time but all he did was make himself look like a clearing in the woods and the BNP have pretty much been in decline ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 23, 2015 Author Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2015 Trotskyites campaigning about the intolerance of UKIP, whether in the right circumstances or not is hilariousIn all honesty I normally would think that it was the wrong thing to do if he was out with his family. But then again it appears his kids weren't with him so he's a liar. But as much of Herr Farago's campaigning seems to be about him being a man of the people and enjoying a pint down the pub (seriously what % of the photo's of him have with a pint in his hand?) then surely he's turned the pub into his campaign ground.The way things are going I wouldn't have put it past him to have done a Dudley North with the SWP so they both came out of the situation getting what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Even if he was in there campaigning, that doesn't make it right. Again, I don't like Farage but that kind of thing has no place in our politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I find the idea of a racist party having political broadcasts infinitely more problematic than a few people in fancy dress jumping on a car bonnet. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 23, 2015 Author Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2015 Even if he was in there campaigning, that doesn't make it right. Again, I don't like Farage but that kind of thing has no place in our politics.Bizarre, if he was in there campaigning then it would be a perfectly legitimate thing to do. It has every place in our politics, its how you got to vote in the first place. The right to vote is rarely just given away and protest is a huge part of the political process. If you don't have the right to protest, you are living in a completely undemocratic country 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Even if he was in there campaigning, that doesn't make it right. Again, I don't like Farage but that kind of thing has no place in our politics. Bizarre, if he was in there campaigning then it would be a perfectly legitimate thing to do. It has every place in our politics, its how you got to vote in the first place. The right to vote is rarely just given away and protest is a huge part of the political process. If you don't have the right to protest, you are living in a completely undemocratic country Running somebody out of a pub isn't exactly peaceful protest. I find the idea of a racist party having political broadcasts infinitely more problematic than a few people in fancy dress jumping on a car bonnet. So you don't think a party should be allowed political broadcasts because you deem them to be racist? They've proven themselves to have enough support to warrant these broadcasts, so they shouldn't be stopped just because some people (and I include myself here) don't agree with them. I don't understand what it is with some on the left and wanting to stop groups like UKIP from having a platform. The prevailing thinking is that they're complete idiots (which they are) so letting them have the platform which they are entitled to will probably only harm them in the long term as most people will realise just how stupid they sound. Put it this way, UKIP would love it if they were suddenly denied party political broadcasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 23, 2015 Author Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2015 Running somebody out of a pub isn't exactly peaceful protest.That isn't actually what happened though is it? Don't believe the story as spun by UKIPFor one, his kids weren't there, for two his wife was driving the car that pulled up so he could "escape the scum". The peaceful protest was taking shape in the form of a cabaret in the pub over the road. Then a rumour went around that Herr Farago was in the pub over the road so some of the Cabaret decided to conga over to Herr Farago's pub. He was "run out of a pub" by a conga of people in Fancy Dress.Seriously the story has been spun to be something it really wasn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Running somebody out of a pub isn't exactly peaceful protest. That isn't actually what happened though is it? Don't believe the story as spun by UKIP For one, his kids weren't there, for two his wife was driving the car that pulled up so he could "escape the scum". The peaceful protest was taking shape in the form of a cabaret in the pub over the road. Then a rumour went around that Herr Farago was in the pub over the road so some of the Cabaret decided to conga over to Herr Farago's pub. He was "run out of a pub" by a conga of people in Fancy Dress. Seriously the story has been spun to be something it really wasn't I'm just going by what I read on the news - I don't follow anything UKIP say. That said, it's still a blurry line. While they may have done nothing illegal, I don't think stuff like that (which I'd say is distinct from regular peaceful protest) should have a place in British politics, regardless of who is being targeted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted March 23, 2015 Administrator Share Posted March 23, 2015 That said, it's still a blurry line. While they may have done nothing illegal, I don't think stuff like that (which I'd say is distinct from regular peaceful protest) should have a place in British politics, regardless of who is being targeted. Who are you to dictate what is a "regular peaceful protest"? If I want to wear fancy dress and conga in pubs, whether or not a PPC is in the pub it's no-one's business but mine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 23, 2015 Author Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2015 Running somebody out of a pub isn't exactly peaceful protest.That isn't actually what happened though is it? Don't believe the story as spun by UKIPFor one, his kids weren't there, for two his wife was driving the car that pulled up so he could "escape the scum". The peaceful protest was taking shape in the form of a cabaret in the pub over the road. Then a rumour went around that Herr Farago was in the pub over the road so some of the Cabaret decided to conga over to Herr Farago's pub. He was "run out of a pub" by a conga of people in Fancy Dress.Seriously the story has been spun to be something it really wasn'tI'm just going by what I read on the news - I don't follow anything UKIP say. That said, it's still a blurry line. While they may have done nothing illegal, I don't think stuff like that (which I'd say is distinct from regular peaceful protest) should have a place in British politics, regardless of who is being targeted.Put it like this, the news today was originated in UKIP head office. There was only one journalist at the scene and this is his take on the eventsThe man who, in 2008, superglued himself to Gordon Brown in protest at the planned expansion of Heathrow is trying to get people’s attention. “We need volunteers to be Charlie the gay donkey,” says Dan Glass. “Front and rear.” It’s 10.30 on Sunday morning in the Richmal Crompton, a Wetherspoon’s pub opposite Bromley South railway station. About 70 people are gathering here before heading off to Nigel Farage’s local pub in Kent – to stage a Beyond Ukip cabaret…much more in the article, too long to reproduce here.Link to Guardian article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 That said, it's still a blurry line. While they may have done nothing illegal, I don't think stuff like that (which I'd say is distinct from regular peaceful protest) should have a place in British politics, regardless of who is being targeted. Who are you to dictate what is a "regular peaceful protest"? If I want to wear fancy dress and conga in pubs, whether or not a PPC is in the pub it's no-one's business but mine. I'm not "dictating" anything, I'm just saying that I don't agree with things like this regardless of who the target is. I'm certainly not saying that there should be police action because nothing illegal happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted March 23, 2015 Administrator Share Posted March 23, 2015 I'm not "dictating" anything, I'm just saying that I don't agree with things like this regardless of who the target is. I'm certainly not saying that there should be police action because nothing illegal happened. Can you let me know what you feel is allowed? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted March 23, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 23, 2015 leaving aside the pretty scummy way to 'protest' and potentially give the arsewipe some sort of perverted sympathy vote..... ....I simply can't imagine driving off without my kids. I genuinely hope / believe I'd stand and fight before I ran without my kids. The pub landlord (the actual one - not Al Murray) has denied his kids were there - says it was just Farage and his Mrs. Doesn't make the methodology any better but I struggle to have any sympathy. The guy is a colossal shithouse who has made his name on intolerance, division and mistrust and deserves all the shite he gets as a result. I'm less interested in the leaders, and more disturbed by the British people who adore them. Who are these people? How old are they? What do they want? What unites them? Where is their heartland? Which party is leaking supporters who turn to UKIP? To answer these questions in order, as it seems to me: Old white working-class men are the main group, All ages, but predominantly late middle-age, The 1950s to return (see chrisp's excellent post above), Not very much - in fact UKIP has been through at least three distinct phases (1st - anti-EU obsessive (1990s), 2nd - American-style libertarian influence (early noughties), 3rd - rightwing populist (late noughties on)) so different parts of the party have very different beliefs and they're basically a convenient flag for rightwing grumpies to salute more than a totally coherent party, Economically-suffering coastal towns in southern England and economically-suffering satellite towns in northern England, and Every party is leaking members to them, probably the Tories are fractionally worse off, but Labour are losing just as many votes to UKIP (the reason it seems less disastrous for Labour is that they're replacing many of those votes with ex-LibDems). What a magnificent set of answers! Cheers. Even if he was in there campaigning, that doesn't make it right. Again, I don't like Farage but that kind of thing has no place in our politics. Bizarre, if he was in there campaigning then it would be a perfectly legitimate thing to do. It has every place in our politics, its how you got to vote in the first place. The right to vote is rarely just given away and protest is a huge part of the political process. If you don't have the right to protest, you are living in a completely undemocratic country I don't know. Gotta go with Mantis on this one. It doesn't sound like political protest as much as "direct action." Even if he was in there campaigning, that doesn't make it right. Again, I don't like Farage but that kind of thing has no place in our politics. Bizarre, if he was in there campaigning then it would be a perfectly legitimate thing to do. It has every place in our politics, its how you got to vote in the first place. The right to vote is rarely just given away and protest is a huge part of the political process. If you don't have the right to protest, you are living in a completely undemocratic country Running somebody out of a pub isn't exactly peaceful protest. I find the idea of a racist party having political broadcasts infinitely more problematic than a few people in fancy dress jumping on a car bonnet. So you don't think a party should be allowed political broadcasts because you deem them to be racist? They've proven themselves to have enough support to warrant these broadcasts, so they shouldn't be stopped just because some people (and I include myself here) don't agree with them. I don't understand what it is with some on the left and wanting to stop groups like UKIP from having a platform. The prevailing thinking is that they're complete idiots (which they are) so letting them have the platform which they are entitled to will probably only harm them in the long term as most people will realise just how stupid they sound. Put it this way, UKIP would love it if they were suddenly denied party political broadcasts. Indeed, you're right, Mantis. Give them an inch of rope and let them do what they will with it ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) That said, it's still a blurry line. While they may have done nothing illegal, I don't think stuff like that (which I'd say is distinct from regular peaceful protest) should have a place in British politics, regardless of who is being targeted. Who are you to dictate what is a "regular peaceful protest"? If I want to wear fancy dress and conga in pubs, whether or not a PPC is in the pub it's no-one's business but mine. That sounds like just the kind of non-violent extremism that will be having you banned from debating with true 'British value' types on a university campus (unless it's the Oxford Union/Cambridge Union, of course) come May (the month or the politician - take your pick). Edited March 23, 2015 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I'm not "dictating" anything, I'm just saying that I don't agree with things like this regardless of who the target is. I'm certainly not saying that there should be police action because nothing illegal happened. Can you let me know what you feel is allowed? It's not about what I think should or shouldn't be "allowed", it's just something I disagree with. I don't agree with people harassing somebody while they're in a pub and then getting in front of his car just because they don't agree with his politics. As I said before as well, it's more ammunition for UKIP anyway - this incident certainly won't do them any harm PR-wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted March 23, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 23, 2015 When I read the story -- and if you want to take the "media conspiracy" route, well, what else is there to say? -- the facts seem fairly clear because the demonstrators are the source: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-32009961 Anti-UKIP protesters have invaded a pub in south London where party leader Nigel Farage was having lunch. Mr Farage was in the Queen's Head in Downe with his wife and two younger children at the time. Demonstrators first went to the George & Dragon, believing it to be Mr Farage's local, before they found him. They said they chased the family out of the pub and jumped on the politician's car bonnet as he drove away. Mr Farage later branded them "scum". Protest? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted March 23, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) I'm not "dictating" anything, I'm just saying that I don't agree with things like this regardless of who the target is. I'm certainly not saying that there should be police action because nothing illegal happened. Can you let me know what you feel is allowed? It's not about what I think should or shouldn't be "allowed", it's just something I disagree with. I don't agree with people harassing somebody while they're in a pub and then getting in front of his car just because they don't agree with his politics. As I said before as well, it's more ammunition for UKIP anyway - this incident certainly won't do them any harm PR-wise. I've seen the same tactic used in the States against corporate leaders by public-sector unionists, and I was appalled. These actions failed to change minds, and indeed turned people against the unionists (to my dismay, actually). Edited March 23, 2015 by Plastic Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) I don't think they should be 'no platformed', but I do question why they are getting so much help from the media when a larger party, the Greens, are being denied. It seems to me that the Media/Political class can put up with a bit of racism if it serves the wider purpose of steering the UK out of the EU and allowing a bonfire of 'red tape' that is pretty much the only thing stopping the UK becoming a mini-USA. That broadcasters don't stop to think that allowing a racist party spout their bollocks on television will only cause further division is what I find problematic. I don't think for a second that they'll suffer as a consequence. Unlike the BNP, UKIP have business and the media behind them. Edited March 23, 2015 by CarewsEyebrowDesigner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 23, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 23, 2015 I'd love to invade a pub. I'd annex the Ubu pump and claim lebensraum up to the Becks tap. And proclaim autarky due to the inherent scratching and peanut supplies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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