The Randy Lerner thread

[NurembergVillan]

If MON was the main football man though, his argument would be "give me £65k a week for Heskey and we'll get CL football and all it's monetary benefits". With nobody to challenge that he had a free run at it.

The finance people are partly responsible, but if the policy was speculate to accumulate there was nobody in the club to ensure that the speculation was being undertaken appropriately.

[MMFy]

given how close we were on a couple of occasions, and the almost universally agreed viewpoint that we bought poorly, surely the money spent could well have gotten us into the CL had it been better spent

By doing what MON failed to do in his four years - buy a decent centre forward.

[Big_John_10]

If MON was the main football man though, his argument would be "give me £65k a week for Heskey and we'll get CL football and all it's monetary benefits". With nobody to challenge that he had a free run at it.

The finance people are partly responsible, but if the policy was speculate to accumulate there was nobody in the club to ensure that the speculation was being undertaken appropriately.

But again it comes down to the finances.

You don't need to be a football man to look at the money going out, the money coming in and how that might change if we got top 4.

The wages to income ratio reached a level which couldn't continue i don"t see how an expert on the football side of things could make that clear to people who have experience in the business world.

[NurembergVillan]

I'll use an analogy -

You buy a house that needs "modernisation". You buy it with the intention of doing it up to then increase the value beyond what you've spent on the house and the improvements. Say it costs you £200k and by spending another £80k you can make it worth £400k.

You hire an interior designer to spend the budget you have in mind believing that when's he's finished you'll have a valuable asset. You know nothing about interior design and let the designer spend the budget however he sees fit and take his word that what he proposes to buy will satisfy your ambition.

After 3 years the work still isn't complete and everyone who comes to view the house can see that ridiculous money has been wasted on expensive taps in the spare bathroom, outdated chintzy curtains and an un-necessary loft conversion.

A different interior designer, or same one being monitored by an expert, would have spent the same money (or less) achieving your ambition to invest into the property in order to make it more valuable.

All you've been left with is a load of expensive furniture that you can't even sell on eBay, a nursery, and garden that wins "best lawn" every year.

That analogy actually turned out better than I expected...

[markavfc40]

MON wouldn't have been able to run rings around him throwing lucrative contracts at players who didn't deserve them.

Was O'Neill negotiating the contracts? and if he was he would surely of had to work with in some boundaries as I doubt very much he could just have said to say Gareth Barry we'll give you 200k to stay with us.

I get the impression someone was keeping an eye on the wages. During O'Neills last 3 years in charge we had the 8th, 6th and 6th highest wage bill in the league. Therefore whether it was Lerner, the CEO, O'Neill or someone else then they ensured we never let our wage bill get up to top 4 levels. It does seem however that having the 6th highest wage bill whilst finishing 6th was not sustainable so someone clearly **** up somewhere.

Edited January 5, 2013 by markavfc40

[Big_John_10]

I'll use an analogy -

You buy a house that needs "modernisation". You buy it with the intention of doing it up to then increase the value beyond what you've spent on the house and the improvements. Say it costs you £200k and by spending another £80k you can make it worth £400k.

You hire an interior designer to spend the budget you have in mind believing that when's he's finished you'll have a valuable asset. You know nothing about interior design and let the designer spend the budget however he sees fit and take his word that what he proposes to buy will satisfy your ambition.

After 3 years the work still isn't complete and everyone who comes to view the house can see that ridiculous money has been wasted on expensive taps in the spare bathroom, outdated chintzy curtains and an un-necessary loft conversion.

A different interior designer, or same one being monitored by an expert, would have spent the same money (or less) achieving your ambition to invest into the property in order to make it more valuable.

All you've been left with is a load of expensive furniture that you can't even sell on eBay, a nursery, and garden that wins "best lawn" every year.

That analogy actually turned out better than I expected...

But it doesn't work

The whole issue was the amount going out of the club in relation to the amount coming into the club. That was the problem.

If the owner needs the likes of graham taylor to point this out to him then i think Lerner is a bigger idiot that i orignally thought.

[briny_ear]

Oh goody, let's get back to arguing about whether our financial disarray is all MON's fault. That's really the most relevant issue facing fans of the club today, I must say.

[NurembergVillan]

Oh goody, let's get back to arguing about whether our financial disarray is all MON's fault. That's really the most relevant issue facing fans of the club today, I must say.

That's not really the point I'm trying to make, it's just the rabbit hole the conversation has gone down. I entered the conversation to say that I felt Randy invested enough money in the first 3 years to get us 4th place but that it wasn't well spent.

A football advisor then, and indeed still now, would have been a huge benefit to ensure that we were getting value for money.

[markavfc40]

That's not really the point I'm trying to make, it's just the rabbit hole the conversation has gone down. I entered the conversation to say that I felt Randy invested enough money in the first 3 years to get us 4th place but that it wasn't well spent.

I don't agree. When he joined us we had been on a downward spiral and had just finished 16th. I am not sure of the figures in the first 3 years but overall with O'Neill as manager in 4 years we had a net spend of 70 - 80 mill ( much less if you include the sale of Milner ). In terms of wages during the three top 6 finishes with Lerner at the helm we had the 8th, 6th and 6th highest wage bill. That level of spending was for me not enough to break the monopoly of Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool, a Man City that from around 2007 was increasingly spending ridiculous amounts of money on fees and wages and a Spurs side that had been building over a number of years.

The level of investment in fees and certainly wages got us about what you would expect. 3 top 6 finishes, a couple of seasons of still competing for a top 4 finish with a handful of games to go, a couple of decent cup runs, playing in Europe and total dominance over our West Midlands neighbours. All whilst attracting average crowds of above or around 40k into VP ( in 07/08 over 40k for the first times since the 1950's ) and in 09/10 having the highest turnover in our history. To sum up we did OK. We didn't over achieve but certainly didn't under achieve either. Since then given the size of this club we have under achieved massively.

Edited January 5, 2013 by markavfc40

[Jimzk5]

That's not really the point I'm trying to make, it's just the rabbit hole the conversation has gone down. I entered the conversation to say that I felt Randy invested enough money in the first 3 years to get us 4th place but that it wasn't well spent.

A football advisor then, and indeed still now, would have been a huge benefit to ensure that we were getting value for money.

Without a doubt a manager with a bit more nous with 200 million at his disposal would have achieved more than 6 place and that's the most depressing thing. We had the money to buy a rolls royce, instead we brought 12 skodas.

[NurembergVillan]

Without a doubt a manager with a bit more nous with 200 million at his disposal would have achieved more than 6 place and that's the most depressing thing. We had the money to buy a rolls royce, instead we brought 12 skodas.

That's pretty much what I'm trying to say mate, yes.

[Big_John_10]

Without a doubt a manager with a bit more nous with 200 million at his disposal would have achieved more than 6 place and that's the most depressing thing. We had the money to buy a rolls royce, instead we brought 12 skodas.

But we didn't when you look at what it took city and spurs to achieve it.

[Kingfisher]

I think his latest managerial appointment is his best and I think he's backed him reasonably well thus far, but more clearly needs to be spent as Lambert rebuilds. We can only spend what we can afford mind.

[NurembergVillan]

In terms of wages during the three top 6 finishes with Lerner at the helm we had the 8th, 6th and 6th highest wage bill.

But with the players that were signed the wage bill should never have been that high. We didn't have a squad (we had a core of around 14 players who warranted those wages and earned the league placings) that justified that outlay.

Conversely, with the money we were spending we should have had a better squad that would have finished higher up the league.

In 2010 at the start of May we were 5th in the league only on goal difference from Spurs and 3 points ahead of Man City. We went to the Etihad with a tired squad, got beat 3-1 and ended up 6th.

If we'd spent the money better we wouldn't have had Luke Young, Beye, Sidwell, Reo-Coker and Heskey on the bench. Roughly £25m of players there and about £250k a week in wages. Whilst I've been quick to criticise Hughes' work at City, Vincent Kompany was in their team that day. He cost roughly the same as Luke Young.

[briny_ear]

That's not really the point I'm trying to make, it's just the rabbit hole the conversation has gone down. I entered the conversation to say that I felt Randy invested enough money in the first 3 years to get us 4th place but that it wasn't well spent.

A football advisor then, and indeed still now, would have been a huge benefit to ensure that we were getting value for money.

And the proposition in your first sentence is extremely contentious and not easily backed up with examples from other wannabe top 4 clubs, as the subsequent discussion has demonstrated.

The idea that a "football adviser" would have helped is also contentious. These arrangements in other premier league clubs have more often than not ended in chaos due to lack of clarity about the boundary lines between the manager and the "adviser"..

Edited January 5, 2013 by briny_ear

[Big_John_10]

Man city were the richest club in the world ready to try and become one of the best teams in europe. Thats going to make it a lot easier to attract quality players. Apart from money what could we really offer players?

Now i'm not going to say all of MoNs signings were good and the best we could accept but a team like man city had a lot more to offer players than us.

[Kingfisher]

What the hell is a football adviser?

[briny_ear]

It really does worry me that so many Villa fans keep wanting to replay the events of 2006-10, as if by constant analysis of what happened we could achieve...er, what?

[NurembergVillan]

On that day in 2010 the teams looked like the below. I don't think we fared too badly in terms of what we spent of fees and wages. Where we came off worse was value for money.

Tottenham

• 01 Gomes
  
• 03 Bale
  
• 04 Kaboul
  
• 20 Dawson
  
• 26 King
  
• 32 Assou-Ekotto
  
• 05 Bentley (Lennon 73)
  
• 06 Huddlestone
  
• 14 Modric
  
• 09 Pavlyuchenko (Gudjohnsen 87)
  
• 18 Defoe (Crouch 72)
  

Substitutes

• 27 Alnwick,
  
• 19 Bassong,
  
• 07 Lennon,
  
• 08 Jenas,
  
• 12 Palacios,
  
• 15 Crouch,
  
• 17 Gudjohnsen
  

Man City

• 38 Fulop
  
• 03 Bridge
  
• 05 Zabaleta
  
• 28 Toure
  
• 33 Kompanyyellow card
  
• 11 A Johnson (Wright-Phillips 77)
  
• 24 Vieira
  
• 34 De Jong
  
• 25 Adebayor
  
• 32 Tevez (Richards 88)
  
• 39 Bellamy
  

Substitutes

• 37 Nielsen,
  
• 02 Richards,
  
• 04 Onuoha,
  
• 15 Garrido,
  
• 16 Sylvinho,
  
• 08 Wright-Phillips,
  
• 14 Santa Cruz
  

Aston Villa

• 01 Friedel
  
• 05 Dunne
  
• 24 Cuellar
  
• 25 Warnock (Heskey 74)
  
• 29 Collinsyellow card
  
• 06 Downing
  
• 07 A Young
  
• 08 Milner
  
• 19 Petrovyellow card
  
• 10 Carew (Delfouneso 74)
  
• 11 Agbonlahor
  

Substitutes

• 22 Guzan,
  
• 02 L Young,
  
• 23 Beye,
  
• 04 Sidwell,
  
• 20 Reo-Coker,
  
• 14 Delfouneso,
  
• 18 Heskey
  

[AvfcRigo82]

Man city were the richest club in the world ready to try and become one of the best teams in europe. Thats going to make it a lot easier to attract quality players. Apart from money what could we really offer players?

State of the art training facilities and a work hard you are guaranteed to keep your place and play first team football rather than rot on the bench philosophy?

.