Richard Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Totally agree with Pete's post above. Spot on as is usually the case. not sure about that mark, it's based on an assumption, a line that has been fed by the club successfully it seems since Marin O'neill left the club that he had total responsibility and authority over the spending at the club, and not only that but it was a change in that policy that led to his departure. An assumption that underpins that post and an assumption which is highly debatable and questionable given the evidence we have seen since his departure I am someone who liked O'Neill and thought given the amount he spent in terms of wages and fees he achieved about what you'd expect. However that doesn't mean he didn't sign some right tripe and the wages they were put on were way higher than they should have. I don't know what Mons involvement was in determining what wages to pay players, nobody does, but I can't imagine he wasn't at least consulted on whether the likes of Beye were worth a reported 40k a week, Heskey 60k a week etc etc. Lerner has been at best naive and at worst a clueless, irresponsible **** idiot in allowing wages to get to a level that the club could not sustain. I personally under O'Neill did not have a problem with finishing sixth and having the sixth highest wage bill. However I like many was oblivious to the fact that the club didn't seem to realize until it was too late that they couldn't get income up to a level to sustain that level of wages. It certainly should not have been assumed that we could have the sixth highest wage bill and be finishing top 4 and playing Champions League football and gaining the income that would bring. That however it appears may well have been the assumption.now this I do agree with and is much closer to my stance and, I think, very different to the original post that you called spot on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 The problem with O'Neill's spending is that we simply did not get value for money.i'm afraid that statement is simply not true. Certainly it can't be made about the entire transfer business by that manager or indeed the relative success it delivered. Some signings delivered improved performances of the team and were relatively inexpensive, some signings were a little more expensive helped to improve performances and then left for higher transfer fees and some were bought cost a lot and didnt play too often. As is most fans failing they tend to look at their club in isolation, but I would suggest that what I have just described could be said of the transfer business at many if not most clubs. What the manager did was assemble a squad who regularly challenged the top four clubs, finished sixth, increased our points total, increased our attendances , delivered winning football and for that we paid wages that were the sixth best in the division. It is debatable the contribution that every player made to that, some more than most, but overall the squad did deliver value for money on that basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Apart from remembering it is free REIN that Lerner is supposed to have given to MON (not REIGN) I think there should be a moratorium on anyone peddling this line until a shred of evidence can be produced to show it has any factual basis.it is a line peddled by those with a vested interest at the club that seems to have been believed by a section of the fanbase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcTheObsession Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Didn't the stats posted a couple of pages back show we only actually paid the 10th, 7th and 6th highest wages under MON's three six-placed finishes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Or not replaced him john and given him 77m to spend over the three years? Yep. Blaming MoN suggests that being in our current position was inevitable once he left. Which is just a ridiculous thought to have. Like I said. Lerner doesn't **** up and no one is moaning about MON at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Apart from remembering it is free REIN that Lerner is supposed to have given to MON (not REIGN) I think there should be a moratorium on anyone peddling this line until a shred of evidence can be produced to show it has any factual basis. Exactly. And considering that the exact things people blame MoN for continued for another 2 years it seems this idea is based on nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 i dont think your getting it man. people are not solely blaming MON its just some people are trying to absolve him of any blame. as for 6th spot with 6th highest wages being good value it isnt. Mancini finished top with highest budget and have not once here it being desctibed as good value for money or a good job. Its expected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 just some people are trying to absolve him of any blame. 12 months after he left we were able to offer a 35 year old keeper a 5 year £50,000 a week contract. A few weeks after he left, with no manager in place, we were able to offer a midfield player a £70,000 a week contract. We were able to offer Darren Bent a massive contract 6 months after he left. Is this really a picture of a club whose wage bill is completely **** up? Makoun - £20,000 Hutton - £25,000 Given - £50,000 Ireland - £70,000 Bent - £70,000 Nzogbia - £40,000 Now they're only estimates but I wouldn't think they're miles off. So that's around £275,000 a week we were able to offer to 6 new players after he left. How can you blame him for our current situation when over the 2 years after he left we had those kind of wages to hand out? It's absolutely ridiculous. You're blaming him for the failures of houllier, Mcleish and Lerner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 see again changing the subject for your argument sake. MON is as much to blame as all the other managers Randy has hired yet he seems to be the one that people try to absolve of any blame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Excellent post, Ilserpente. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutherland Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 This charlatan still here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 see again changing the subject for your argument sake. MON is as much to blame as all the other managers Randy has hired yet he seems to be the one that people try to absolve of any blame Changing the argument how? He left us with a team that had just had a very good season. Achieved our highest points total in years and a defence that had the 4th best defensive record in the league. We were also still in a position to hand out big money contracts to new players. So how exactly then were we in such a mess that 3 years later he's got to take some of the blame for the position we find ourselves in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 A defence that started to crumble and wasn't very good football players. Great fighters, not so good with their feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 A defence that started to crumble and wasn't very good football players. Great fighters, not so good with their feet. A defence that conceded 39 goals in 38 games. Yes what a mess he left us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Yes, but it started to crumble. And do you really think that Cuellar, Dunne, Collins were really technical gifted? People wondered why Houllier couldn't get them to work. Quite easy to explain, though no one really wants to listen to it. He wanted them to play, which they weren't able to. Maybe he should've changed the style of play to fit them better, but they really didn't work. And a really good player can adapt. Plus the mess that Collins and Dunne started, just because they didn't wanna train that much. As said, great fighters, not that good football players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il_serpente Posted March 16, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted March 16, 2013 Exactly. Houllier wasn't brought in to get the best out of MON's team. He was brought in to start a rebuilding based on a less ambitious financial plan and decided a change in the style of play was needed as part of that. The defenders were exposed as mediocre footballers as a result. A drop of 3 places after losing the previous year's best player and changing the style and bringing through youth actually isn't too shabby. Unfortunately, he was not a good man manager and was a walking PR disaster, but he got the project off to a reasonably good start. Appointing McLeish was a howler that undid any rebuilding progress. But the reason he couldn't get anyone better is that no one wanted to work within the new constraints that were a direct result of the O'Neill years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Either way if we stay up this season and the wage bill goes back down to 60% of turnover we should at least give credit for Randy's decisions this season. That's all I ask from him, to learn from his mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 17, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 17, 2013 Totally agree with Pete's post above. Spot on as is usually the case.not sure about that mark, it's based on an assumption, a line that has been fed by the club successfully it seems since Marin O'neill left the club that he had total responsibility and authority over the spending at the club, and not only that but it was a change in that policy that led to his departure. An assumption that underpins that post and an assumption which is highly debatable and questionable given the evidence we have seen since his departure except it isn't. I wrote he selected players to sign and was partly involved in setting or agreeing wages for them over 4 and 5 year contracts. Partly involved. I did use "free reign" later in my post, referring more generally to the football direction of the club - what kind of players to sign, what profile, age wise etc. though I should have been clearer in explaining that's what I mean by the free reign, even though I specifically said he was only partly involved and responsible for wages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamsonwoodVillan Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Top post from Sharky. We went from having decent enough league finishes with 2 different styles of play under O'Neill and Houllier, to being brought to the point of ruin in McLeish's year. I think the financial plan Lerner has gone for in the last 18 months has been dicey from a football point of view, frustrating and disheartening for the fans, and downright dangerous in terms of relegation. But if we do stay up this year and then manage to get rid of Bent, Hutton, Dunne, Makoun and Ireland permanently for a decent enough return, then his approach will have worked. If that scenario does come to reality, I would be really positive for next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 just some people are trying to absolve him of any blame. 12 months after he left we were able to offer a 35 year old keeper a 5 year £50,000 a week contract. A few weeks after he left, with no manager in place, we were able to offer a midfield player a £70,000 a week contract. We were able to offer Darren Bent a massive contract 6 months after he left. Is this really a picture of a club whose wage bill is completely **** up? Makoun - £20,000 Hutton - £25,000 Given - £50,000 Ireland - £70,000 Bent - £70,000 Nzogbia - £40,000 Now they're only estimates but I wouldn't think they're miles off. So that's around £275,000 a week we were able to offer to 6 new players after he left. How can you blame him for our current situation when over the 2 years after he left we had those kind of wages to hand out? It's absolutely ridiculous. You're blaming him for the failures of houllier, Mcleish and Lerner. Your point is correct, but it was well accepted that we all ( Club, fans) put a lot of faith/trust in O'Neill (unmitigating at times) It has been said many times until some of us ar blue in the face...Those that are ctiticising him are not laying all the ills of AVFC at his door. It can also be argued that had a squad of satisfaction been left those players you mentioned bought by those mangers you mentioned would not have been even necessary. All managers make recruitment cock ups, ironically Mantin O'Neills main ones were towards his career end which seems strange, you would think your better buys would be progressive, buy hey ho, just my thoughts. The main praise or criticism of a managers Recruitment programme is based on the ratio of good v bad personally i thought he had much more bad than good hence my opinion that he has a fair share of the blame for our present situation. I have never attempted to blame O'Neill wholey and soley for today's situation, but merely felt it necessary to voice my opinion against thos that seem to choose to blame wholey and soley 2 managers who inherited his squad and had 12 mths a piece to turn it around on the backdrop of a spiralling wage bill and falling gates and falling results. PS Thought Mark's rendition was very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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