The Randy Lerner thread

[TheDrums]

If you look back at the season we sold Yorke.

IN:

Merson - £6.5m

Watson -£4m

Dublin - £5.75m

Stone - £5.5m

Sold:

Yorke - £12.6m

Unsworth - £3m

Charles - £1m

[bickster]

I thought I'd seen most things in my lifetime but a Bill Howell article with no direct quotes, published in the Birmingham Mail, being upheld as fact and and the plain truth, is most definitely a new one on me.

[Houlston]

I thought I'd seen most things in my lifetime but a Bill Howell article with no direct quotes, published in the Birmingham Mail, being upheld as fact and and the plain truth, is most definitely a new one on me.

Well it fits with an opinion so it must be true.

People also skirt over the fact that this football man was part of the organisation that re-employed Graham Taylor.

I'm also with Trent in that comparing what Herbert did to Randy is totally pointless and irrelevant. Different times, different constraints, different economy. Its like when people compare Pele to Messi etc, its just something that cant be compared.

[Bazdavies79]

I thought I'd seen most things in my lifetime but a Bill Howell article with no direct quotes, published in the Birmingham Mail, being upheld as fact and and the plain truth, is most definitely a new one on me.

Yeah, I let that one pass. Two post earlier he took the piss out of my use of Wiki, which I never even claimed to be the gospel truth either.

[Denis_B]

FFS find a more reliable article then!

One thing about Howell is he had the ear of some on the inside at Villa but what do I know eh?

[thetrees]

Well we sold Yorke for £12 million if i rmber correctly.

Dion Dublin was signed for £5 million .

Yorke was sold for £12.6m.

Dublin was £5.75m, and Paul Merson was another £6.75m. Which comes to, let me see, £12.5m. That tight bastard Doug and the case of the uninvested £100K!

And Yorke was sold because he wanted to leave, just like Milner, Young and Downing, although that's Randy Lerner's fault, apparently.

And having seen Yorke's final game and Milner's final game it is pretty clear which of the two has respect for Aston Villa and its supporters.

[Big_John_10]

What's any of that got to do with the fact the yorke money was fully reinvested on decent players?

[bickster]

FFS find a more reliable article then!

One thing about Howell is he had the ear of some on the inside at Villa but what do I know eh?

Not around the time of Steve Stride leaving he didn't!

This Steve Stride we talk about, he is the same one you see in the Directors Box for most home matches? So upset at his leaving of his position he still comes to the match at the behest of the owner who dumped him and not only that, those clubs who would be queueing up for his services the following season because of his experience (which I don't doubt, nor his usefulness to these clubs) clearly employed him so quickly (I don't doubt there were offers btw).

Anyone ever thought that he actually thought "The time is right?"

Now I can find fault with Randy Lerner down many avenues in the last couple of seasons. I think the board has made quite a few mistakes along the way, some were part of a learning curve, some were plain silly but I don't for one minute think he's worse than Deadly, nor do I think, it's time for him to sell up and go. I think he's made some very poor decisions and some good ones.

I'm realistic enough to realise that quite soon the Premier League bubble might actually burst and in quite a spectacular style. The next Sky deal may be less than the current one, they and NI have more than enough troubles that I shouldn't need to expound upon. The country (in fact the whole world virtually) is in an extremely volatile economic situation where a.t.m. there are few winners and in such times the frivolity that is football will undoubtedly suffer. RL cannot afford to compete with the CL clubs right now, that much is obvious but what I think he is doing is preparing the club to compete when the bubble does burst. And Yes the appointment of Mcleish was not the ideal appointment but it was an appointment that kind of signalled the way we're looking to the short term future in predicting a bit of a slump. We tried the throwing cash at it approach during the good times, it nearly worked but world economics kinda intervened (and Man Citeh). Even the biggest clubs in the land are struggling a bit comparatively right now. Want a Man Utd Season Ticket? they'll sell you one tomorrow, same for Liverpool and that next SKY deal is crucial to the sport in this country. Few clubs can survive a big drop in TV money as well as the current attendance drops around the country. Football needs to wise up, it needs to charge fans less, substantially less and we'll wait and see if the club drops its prices (they need to) but those clubs preparing now will benefit if the bubble bursts, which I think is inevitable (other's may disagree). If that is what RL is looking at then he may actually in time be considered to have foresight.

I still think McLeish's appointment signalled this in the summer. I wasn't a fan of the idea, he wouldn't have been my choice and even now, I think he's a poor manager in some respects but I also think he's kind of the right manager for us right now. Yes he makes some cock ups, like the team selection against Spuds, he got that completely wrong but so did the players, they looked on the whole like they didn't give a shit either and I think that is symptomatic of the whole football culture right now, the players at Villa are no different with some exceptions. But you can't just get rid of most of the team overnight, just like you can't just dump a manager after 12 games or get on the owners back after such a short period of a downturn.

The wages thing may be sorted to a degree next summer, with quite a few players at the end of their contracts and replacements will be needed, lets just see what happens then. I for one don't think we'll get relegated

this season despite what some people think, our squad IS better than that.

We're in a dark place right now (ish) but I don't think getting rid of the manager or protesting against the owner it the correct and constructive thing to do right now, the current strategy might actually be the correct one in the medium to long term, in the mean time we just have to grin and bear it.

[maqroll]

^ Good post.

[DelboyVilla]

^^^ Good agrument there Bicks and I can see the logic behind it.

However will a smaller Sky deal hurt Man Citeh? Or Chelsea? Or even Manure?

The first two no. Their owners have buckets of cash just under the bed and a financial crisis is not going to affect them really. Manure on the other hand being mortgaged to the hilt rely on revenue to pay loans however they will still generate cash because globally people want to watch them, buy the shirts, subscribe to MUTV etc.

The clubs it will hurt badly are us, Bolton, Everton, Wigan, Newcastle etc the below the big 5 or 6 for whom TV is the biggest earner. So may be Randy is preparing us for that down turn in revenue by ensuring that our biggest cost is reduced to managable levels. Personally I very much doubt he has the knowledge and foresight to prepare for such an eventuality, I just think he wants to save money. May be it will be an good thing by accident?

[DelboyVilla]

Also when you look at the main candidates for the managerial position the one and only thing that McUseless and Martinez have in common is working on a shoestring, selling their best players for large fees and only reinvesting a small part of the cash. The manager choice IMO was not a footballing choice but a economic choice.

[TheDrums]

That was always clear to me.

Lerner might bring out the "He respected our history" bollocks. Its quite clear he hasn't a clue. No Villa owner would appoint our rivals manager that was relegated with them twice.

It just shows how out of focus the man is.

[Denis_B]

Bicks, you make some good points however..... Not for once have I suggested Lerner is worse than Doug.

The point about Stride was at that time he had someone on board who knew something about football and the way it works at board level. Since he went we haven't had that but isn't it worrying that men we have had up there with experience in whatever field ie Fitzgerald who walked away and went to Man City for a while, Michael Cunnah involved in Wembley lasted 6 months, and we are stuck with Faulkner who has done what exactly?

[bickster]

Also when you look at the main candidates for the managerial position the one and only thing that McUseless and Martinez have in common is working on a shoestring, selling their best players for large fees and only reinvesting a small part of the cash. The manager choice IMO was not a footballing choice but a economic choice.

Martinez chose not to come to Villa, some time before McLeish was even thought of iirc. But yes I think the same, the manager choice was for just that, same reason they chased Moyes too

[bickster]

Bicks, you make some good points however..... Not for once have I suggested Lerner is worse than Doug.

The point about Stride was at that time he had someone on board who knew something about football and the way it works at board level. Since he went we haven't had that but isn't it worrying that men we have had up there with experience in whatever field ie Fitzgerald who walked away and went to Man City for a while, Michael Cunnah involved in Wembley lasted 6 months, and we are stuck with Faulkner who has done what exactly?

Fitzgerald was a bit of an arse tbh, he was "Mr 5 Year Plan", he kept putting his foot in it with his hyped up claims of what we were going to do. Cunnah I have no idea about. As for Faulkner, you say what has he done? I'm not sure, what is there to do? North Stand development? Absolutely no point in that right now, what a waste of money that would be. I'm not his biggest fan tbh but I don't get why there is a huge amount of vitriol towards him either, most people in his position should be seen and not heard very often. PF, what errors has he made exactly? I think he's a bit of a scapegoat tbh

[Big_John_10]

I just don't really buy this idea that a man who keeps making poor decisions at the browns and has started doing the same here, now somehow sees something other owners don't and is implementing a fantastic long term plan.

I think houllier would still be here if he didn't have his problems and I don't see him working the same way as Mcleish. And if this is the plan why have we got the bullshit about trying our best to offer young and downing new deals when this clearly wasn't possible? And why have we got the general telling us we can finish 5th and imagine what Mcleish will do if backed?

It's a nice thought but I'll need to see or hear more from the club to convince me we are being run by people who know what they're doing and can implement a plan that works.

[Risso]

I just don't really buy this idea that a man who keeps making poor decisions at the browns and has started doing the same here, now somehow sees something other owners don't and is implementing a fantastic long term plan.

Spot on. It's not a plan at all, it's the emergency reaction to a situation that was allowed to spiral out of control due to piss poor management and decision making from that idiot Lerner.

[John_Lerwill]

I just don't really buy this idea that a man who keeps making poor decisions at the browns and has started doing the same here, now somehow sees something other owners don't and is implementing a fantastic long term plan.

I think houllier would still be here if he didn't have his problems and I don't see him working the same way as Mcleish. And if this is the plan why have we got the bullshit about trying our best to offer young and downing new deals when this clearly wasn't possible? And why have we got the general telling us we can finish 5th and imagine what Mcleish will do if backed?

It's a nice thought but I'll need to see or hear more from the club to convince me we are being run by people who know what they're doing and can implement a plan that works.

Thanks, B_J, for bringing the debate back down to earth. Bicks made quite a few good comments, but I somehow think he's trying to look at the Villa situation through star-spangled glasses. And clearly no-one was trying to say RL is worse than Doug - I don't know how that interpretation came around.

PF is an important link in all this as it is through PF that RL runs the club and the appointment of AM came about through dialogue between RL and PF. As suggested before, a DofF seems a definite requirement at VP, although I feel that Houllier's appointment was not such a bad one. At least he tried to have the players playing football from the back.

Villa, as Bicks said, may not get relegated this season - but the very fact that we're talking about the likelihood of Villa sinking close to those depths (for the second season running if it happens) and supporters getting fed up of paying to watch what is being put on offer, is extremely worrying.

[chips'ngravy]

FFS find a more reliable article then!

One thing about Howell is he had the ear of some on the inside at Villa but what do I know eh?

Not around the time of Steve Stride leaving he didn't!

This Steve Stride we talk about, he is the same one you see in the Directors Box for most home matches? So upset at his leaving of his position he still comes to the match at the behest of the owner who dumped him and not only that, those clubs who would be queueing up for his services the following season because of his experience (which I don't doubt, nor his usefulness to these clubs) clearly employed him so quickly (I don't doubt there were offers btw).

Anyone ever thought that he actually thought "The time is right?"

Now I can find fault with Randy Lerner down many avenues in the last couple of seasons. I think the board has made quite a few mistakes along the way, some were part of a learning curve, some were plain silly but I don't for one minute think he's worse than Deadly, nor do I think, it's time for him to sell up and go. I think he's made some very poor decisions and some good ones.

I'm realistic enough to realise that quite soon the Premier League bubble might actually burst and in quite a spectacular style. The next Sky deal may be less than the current one, they and NI have more than enough troubles that I shouldn't need to expound upon. The country (in fact the whole world virtually) is in an extremely volatile economic situation where a.t.m. there are few winners and in such times the frivolity that is football will undoubtedly suffer. RL cannot afford to compete with the CL clubs right now, that much is obvious but what I think he is doing is preparing the club to compete when the bubble does burst. And Yes the appointment of Mcleish was not the ideal appointment but it was an appointment that kind of signalled the way we're looking to the short term future in predicting a bit of a slump. We tried the throwing cash at it approach during the good times, it nearly worked but world economics kinda intervened (and Man Citeh). Even the biggest clubs in the land are struggling a bit comparatively right now. Want a Man Utd Season Ticket? they'll sell you one tomorrow, same for Liverpool and that next SKY deal is crucial to the sport in this country. Few clubs can survive a big drop in TV money as well as the current attendance drops around the country. Football needs to wise up, it needs to charge fans less, substantially less and we'll wait and see if the club drops its prices (they need to) but those clubs preparing now will benefit if the bubble bursts, which I think is inevitable (other's may disagree). If that is what RL is looking at then he may actually in time be considered to have foresight.

I still think McLeish's appointment signalled this in the summer. I wasn't a fan of the idea, he wouldn't have been my choice and even now, I think he's a poor manager in some respects but I also think he's kind of the right manager for us right now. Yes he makes some cock ups, like the team selection against Spuds, he got that completely wrong but so did the players, they looked on the whole like they didn't give a shit either and I think that is symptomatic of the whole football culture right now, the players at Villa are no different with some exceptions. But you can't just get rid of most of the team overnight, just like you can't just dump a manager after 12 games or get on the owners back after such a short period of a downturn.

The wages thing may be sorted to a degree next summer, with quite a few players at the end of their contracts and replacements will be needed, lets just see what happens then. I for one don't think we'll get relegated

this season despite what some people think, our squad IS better than that.

We're in a dark place right now (ish) but I don't think getting rid of the manager or protesting against the owner it the correct and constructive thing to do right now, the current strategy might actually be the correct one in the medium to long term, in the mean time we just have to grin and bear it.

Very interesting and well argued piece Bicks. The only part I would take issue on would be the slightly over-generous assessment of McLeish's suitability for the job.

I've become quite detached from the Villa this season and have not gone out of my way to watch the games. It was with a certain reluctance that I dragged myself down the pub on Monday night, more out of a sense of duty than genuine desire. I thus found it difficult to get too angry when things inevitably panned out as I'd more or less expected. I was disturbed to find that the next morning I woke up angrier than when I'd gone to bed. So it seems however much I rationalise my interest I can't avoid those emotions, part and parcel of being a lifelong fan. You can't get rid of them that easily.

Anyway, I digress. Back to what provoked these feelings of rage. The way McLeish set up the team meant we were never going to get anything out of the game, and much less, try and entertain our travelling fans. This entrenched negativity that is so fundamental to McLeish's footballing philosophy means he will never be the right man for me. The Blues link is almost irrelevant. We have two very good strikers, but how were they ever going to get any service from that midfield? Surely, even the most inexperienced of football watchers could have worked that out? Why couldn't McLeish?

There is a myth that needs to be expounded too. That playing ugly football is somehow related to grit and determination. Well that was completely absent on Monday night. Again, there should be no surprise at this either. I was at the 5-1 mauling of Small Heath a few seasons ago, and the thing that shocked me the most was the total lack of fight from them. Under Bruce, we never witnessed such an insipid display as they gave that day under McLeish.

Which leaves me wondering, what exactly does McLeish offer?

[Richard]

I completely understand the post made by Bicks, absolutely. A resolute defence of an onwer that by someone obviously still believing he deserves that defence and looking for some positive reasosns for some actions that otherwise may be bewildering.

I chose to not defend Lerner and very much take the line of Risso and Big John. If Lerner was this grand business tactician then, frankly, we would not be in the mess we now find ourselves.

In terms of Lerner vs Ellis, I do not think Lerner is worse than Doug overall. I think Doug did some things worse than Lerner and Lerner some things worse then Doug, for me they are on a par and certainly if Ellis had done some of the things Lerner has he would have been lambasted , and quite rightly. For me my issue is just that though. Lerner gets the support Ellis never did and for me he does that because he is not Ellis, pure and simple.

On the director of football debate, which other club in the league has one? Where does it work? You see it is just something that do not believe could be successful and the reason for that is that any manager worth his salt would not work for a club that has a DOF in place looking over his shoulder and having the remit to basically interfere. Sorry but we do not need a DOF, we need an owner that knows what he is doing and a manager who can get the best out of our players. The second bit of that is becomming more pressing as we move through the seaon by the way