The Randy Lerner thread

[Houlston]

Wow, well I'be been told. I really cant be arsed replying to all the above its the equivalent of continually pushing polar magnets together with one arm. Three real nuggets of posts totally missing my point as well but I guess that isnt ironic either.

Only one person missing the point I feel. But don't go. This is a debating site and if everybody agreed then it would soon grind to a halt. I believe that you think RL is doing a reasonable/good job and I, for one, would be interested to know why. All I, and Trent I believe, are trying to do is shift the focus of this debate away from the red herring that is "competing with Mansour" on spending on to the true debate which is around the day to day running of the club (board, manager appointments etc.) as set out above.

And I agree we cant compete with Mansour but Trent was going on about people were not being critical of the poster when they are. The rest was more about the condescending and belittling approach that was taken whilst critisiing the poster for doing similar, just because it is or isnt true its still his opinion. Its even funnier when you read things like "the rest of his opinion he is entitled to" well actually no, he is entitled to all of his opinion. And yes Trent the opening gambit is ironic because that type of phrase is condescending and belittling.

[stanthemanisgod]

Trent/Barry,

I see your point but other are inadvertantly asking for that level of spending, and I'm fairly certain that if the spending hadn't dried up people would be a lot more willing to let the other things slide.

For example the communication from the board, how many other clubs communicate their intentions to the level people on these boards are expecting ours to? Why do people want a statement from the club? Well it's probably because the money has gone?

People unhappy with the appointment of McLeish, well why do you think we had to settle for a manager like McLeish? I bet it would have something to do with the amount of money we have to spend.

People criticise the other members of the board, well nobody seemed to care who was around when we were spending money and pushing for 4th with half the England squad.

So the majority of the things people are moaning about can only really be fixed by money.

We can debate all day long about how we got to this point and whether that make Lerner a good owner or not, but it's down to simple maths now, we can only spend what we earn and we dont earn enough to put us in a strong enough position to be able to consistently reach the level we as fans aspire to.

It's the reason Newcastle are trying to sell the naming rights to their ground, they know they dont have the spending power to maintain the level they're currently at and are tyring everything possible to increase that.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

to be honest with you, yesterday when I was looking at the league table, for once I actually had the acceptance that is was about right, all the teams above us deserve to be there more than us and/or have spent more money.

[TrentVilla]

And I agree we cant compete with Mansour but Trent was going on about people were not being critical of the poster when they are. The rest was more about the condescending and belittling approach that was taken whilst critisiing the poster for doing similar, just because it is or isnt true its still his opinion.

Only I doubt it is, I doubt very much he actually thinks people really expect Randy to have the same wealth as Mansour. So no I doubt it was his opinion, it was what I said it was.

Its even funnier when you read things like "the rest of his opinion he is entitled to" well actually no, he is entitled to all of his opinion. And yes Trent the opening gambit is ironic because that type of phrase is condescending and belittling.

No irony at all as it wasn't intended to be those things, it was in reference to the fact it was a long reply covering lots of different things. You have absolutely no idea of the intentions or thoughts behind what I posted so please do not try and second guess them because you are wide of the mark.

The only thing I've said that was perhaps belittling was the suggestion that you don't understand the definition of ironic.

[Houlston]

If you say so Trent, if you say so.

[TrentVilla]

Only one person missing the point I feel. But don't go. This is a debating site and if everybody agreed then it would soon grind to a halt. I believe that you think RL is doing a reasonable/good job and I, for one, would be interested to know why. All I, and Trent I believe, are trying to do is shift the focus of this debate away from the red herring that is "competing with Mansour" on spending on to the true debate which is around the day to day running of the club (board, manager appointments etc.) as set out above.

Exactly. Agreed on all points.

[Richard]

For me I just wish people could debate this and read what is written not what they believe is written. And then to post in a reasonable way avoiding the digs and not continually post about other posters when they reply.

Someone on here ecently posted that "I think thats what pisses people most of on this board, not the fact people have opposing views but there has to be some form of insult or a little dig" and I agree with that.

[villabromsgrove]

I understand that some fans are unhappy and frustrated by Villa's somewhat inevitable inability to hold on to our best players and attract a top manager. I also accept the view that Randy has shown inexperience and naivety on a number of occasions during his stewardship of the club.

However, I really believe that Randy is an honorable man trying to do his best for the long term future of the club. Our team is probably about where it should be at the moment in the Premiership, and the recent performances of some of our younger players is exciting for our immediate future.

At a time when whole countries are on the verge of collapsing financially, spending big money to achieve progress to the next level is no longer the option that it was a few seasons back. Sensible house keeping and development of our young players is the correct way to go in my opinion.

I don't expect posters to agree with my opinion, but I'm happy to give my personal view as a satisfied Villa supporter.

[Woodytom]

I understand that some fans are unhappy and frustrated by Villa's somewhat inevitable inability to hold on to our best players and attract a top manager. I also accept the view that Randy has shown inexperience and naivety on a number of occasions during his stewardship of the club.

However, I really believe that Randy is an honorable man trying to do his best for the long term future of the club. Our team is probably about where it should be at the moment in the Premiership, and the recent performances of some of our younger players is exciting for our immediate future.

At a time when whole countries are on the verge of collapsing financially, spending big money to achieve progress to the next level is no longer the option that it was a few seasons back. Sensible house keeping and development of our young players is the correct way to go in my opinion.

I don't expect posters to agree with my opinion, but I'm happy to give my personal view as a satisfied Villa supporter.

Fully agree

[roadoftrinity]

I understand that some fans are unhappy and frustrated by Villa's somewhat inevitable inability to hold on to our best players and attract a top manager. I also accept the view that Randy has shown inexperience and naivety on a number of occasions during his stewardship of the club.

However, I really believe that Randy is an honorable man trying to do his best for the long term future of the club. Our team is probably about where it should be at the moment in the Premiership, and the recent performances of some of our younger players is exciting for our immediate future.

At a time when whole countries are on the verge of collapsing financially, spending big money to achieve progress to the next level is no longer the option that it was a few seasons back. Sensible house keeping and development of our young players is the correct way to go in my opinion.

I don't expect posters to agree with my opinion, but I'm happy to give my personal view as a satisfied Villa supporter.

Completely agree with this.

[Richard]

VB, the issue with what you ahve said is that this

the recent performances of some of our younger players is exciting for our immediate future.

is actually this

the recent performances of some of our younger players is exciting for future selling potential.

ie we do not have a competitive future in terms of achieving anything on the pitch IMO. Which is sort of a goal of being in the game in the first place, or should be

[Woodytom]

VB, the issue with what you ahve said is that this

the recent performances of some of our younger players is exciting for our immediate future.

is actually this

the recent performances of some of our younger players is exciting for future selling potential.

ie we do not have a competitive future in terms of achieving anything on the pitch IMO. Which is sort of a goal of being in the game in the first place, or should be

While I only partially agree Richard, does that make Lerner a bad chairman/owner?

Id say we have more chance of building a squad that stick together from bringing through youngsters - than splashing the cash.

Im not so sure people are frustrqated with Randy Lerner, just frustrated with what is essentially - reality.

We have spoke before about how it was evident early on with certain signings that the potential to mount a serious 'sustained' challenge simply wasnt there - Many people are still struggling to come to terms with that I think.

[Bazdavies79]

VB, the issue with what you ahve said is that this

the recent performances of some of our younger players is exciting for our immediate future.

is actually this

the recent performances of some of our younger players is exciting for future selling potential.

ie we do not have a competitive future in terms of achieving anything on the pitch IMO. Which is sort of a goal of being in the game in the first place, or should be

I don't think we've ever willingly sold our best players, but it's clearly a factor of the modern game that sometimes we've had to. I don't think there are any easy or realistic solutions to change that, so we have to get used to it. Not that it's a new phenomenon for AV either.

[roadoftrinity]

VB, the issue with what you ahve said is that this

the recent performances of some of our younger players is exciting for our immediate future.

is actually this

the recent performances of some of our younger players is exciting for future selling potential.

ie we do not have a competitive future in terms of achieving anything on the pitch IMO. Which is sort of a goal of being in the game in the first place, or should be

All depends though Richard, this time, we might get a good team together, that wants to stop around for a few years at least. Also, hopefully the club will learn from past mistakes, and make sure the players are on long term contracts, as soon as a player is down to two years these days they hold the cards.

[villabromsgrove]

VB, the issue with what you ahve said is that this

the recent performances of some of our younger players is exciting for our immediate future.

is actually this

the recent performances of some of our younger players is exciting for future selling potential.

ie we do not have a competitive future in terms of achieving anything on the pitch IMO. Which is sort of a goal of being in the game in the first place, or should be

Unfortunately I think you're probably right in terms of our expectations Richard, but I'm still going to enjoy watching their progress for us until the inevitable happens.

Also if these young players do well enough for us to attract the attention of bigger clubs and are eventually (inevitably?) sold for large fees, not only will we have enjoyed watching them and hopefully benefited in terms of results, but their sale will help to insure Villa's continuing stability if the money is wisely reinvested.

[TrentVilla]

I understand that some fans are unhappy and frustrated by Villa's somewhat inevitable inability to hold on to our best players and attract a top manager. I also accept the view that Randy has shown inexperience and naivety on a number of occasions during his stewardship of the club.

Then we aren't actually all that far apart in our views. Sure I'm frustrated by the exit of our best players, aren't we all, I don't though hold Randy directly responsible for that.

I do though hold him directly responsible for the situation in regards our last two managerial appointments and rightly so in my view.

My frustrations and critism of him have never been about finances or a lack of investment, though I've questioned some claims in relation to his spending. My critism of him has always been about his decision making/decisions made, the lack of control in previous years and the lack of real plan or obvious plan in recent times.

However, I really believe that Randy is an honorable man trying to do his best for the long term future of the club.

I totally agree with you I just question his actual ability to deliver.

Our team is probably about where it should be at the moment in the Premiership, and the recent performances of some of our younger players is exciting for our immediate future.

I differ in that I don't think some of our young players are really that good, I think they are in and around the first team due to circumstances and costs much like under O'Leary before O'Neill arrived.

At a time when whole countries are on the verge of collapsing financially, spending big money to achieve progress to the next level is no longer the option that it was a few seasons back. Sensible house keeping and development of our young players is the correct way to go in my opinion.

I'm not against any of those things but then you can't do these things and then have the General still talking about 4th or 5th place depending upon a slip when typing. We are a club at best standing still and the fear is that any talented kids we do develop will be sold especially as it appears we still need to cut the cost of wages.

It seems to me we are going to go backwards before we start going forwards.

I don't expect posters to agree with my opinion, but I'm happy to give my personal view as a satisfied Villa supporter.

Good for you and I don't mean that in a flippant or sarcastic way. We are never all going to agree and if we all stopped worrying about that or trying to convert each other threads on here would be more enjoyable.

I've a far better understanding of where you stand now and hopefully the same in reverse and you can see that it isn't just a case of an over the top expectation based on spending and spending.

I personally don't think anyone is blind to the issues in Randy's ownership especially in the last couple of years just as I don't think anyone thinks he should be "doing a Mansour".

The one thing I still to this day don't understand though is that the club talked a lot about trying to keep Milner, Young and Downing. They talked about offering them big contracts to keep them.

What I don't understand is considering how much the wage bill has been reduced and how much McLeish tells us it still needs to be reduced how they could ever have really delivered on this?

Either they could afford the extra salary then and something has changed since in either circumstance or finance. Or they couldn't actually have paid those extra wages in which case how genuine were the offers and the talk of trying to keep the players?

[roadoftrinity]

What I don't understand is considering how much the wage bill has been reduced and how much McLeish tells us it still needs to be reduced how they could ever have really delivered on this?

Either they could afford the extra salary then and something has changed since in either circumstance or finance. Or they couldn't actually have paid those extra wages in which case how genuine were the offers and the talk of trying to keep the players?

We still signed Given and N'Zogbia on big wages. McLeish also said that there is no issue with any of the first team players been on big wages, it's the players that aren't in the first team that are.

Surely wage bill is a problem when we are paying massive money to the likes of Beye, Ireland and Cueller who hardley feature.

[villabromsgrove]

Good post Trent.

I think that Randy initially believed that with Mon as a charismatic figurehead that the dream was possible for Villa if he backed Mon to the hilt. Imo the General's comments over the past 18 months or so, were probably well meant but show that he shared RL's inexperience by repeatedly saying that we were still on that course.

That naivety and the board's inexperience made RL slow to both see and react to the changing economic situation and limitations imo. When he did finally act he opted for major surgery rather than a gradual return to economic health. Despite his inexperience I think that Randy has done his best, and will be good for the club as he learns his trade.

Finally, I seem to rate our young players higher than you do by the sound of it. It will be interesting to see what happens to them, as I have been known to wear rose tinted spectacles.

[LancsVillan]

Couple of excellent posts today villabromsgrove, ones I agree with. Trent and Richard's opinions are equally valid and the questions / observations very true. It does go to show though.that we all - the board included - do want what is best for AVFC

[blandy]

I read an interview in the Indie the other day with Andre Arshavin. He (I paraphrase) said that they'd all been spoken to at Arsenal by their chairman/chf exec and had it explained that there are 3 types of clubs in the Prem - those hitched to a person of incredible wealth, those hitched to debt and those hitched to a policy of being self financing.

Villa has gone from the first to the last category, really, and it's been hard to understand (football wise) at times. But IMO, realistically, all clubs should be self financing.

That we didn't get any shiny baubles to show for Randy's initial throwing of money and hands-off approach (when to be fair he didn't have the experience to do it any other way) is a shame for him and us.

I agree with villabromsgrove in that

..I really believe that Randy is an honourable man trying to do his best for the long term future of the club.

Yes, he's made mistakes - some with hindsight (MO'N's apparent lack of budgetry limits) and some that looked like mistakes from the start - raising ticket prices this season being one. Others would point to choices of managers or whatever.

The thing is, you hope and expect he learns from the good and bad choices he makes and becomes better at it, as time goes on.

The game is in a state of particular change at the moment and much of the effects of those changes are felt by us no matter what our owner does, is able to do, or is unable to do.

He has a responsibility to safeguard the club, to allow it to do the best it can within it's limits and the limits of the circumstances we are in, at any point.

For me, despite mistakes, he's a good owner, certainly better than the previous Chairman. His reluctance to communicate with us is disappointing and I think it's the lack of coherent clear communication and information that perhaps brings about much of the criticism - if we can't see the full picture, we can't form fully rounded judgement of how things are going.