Manager Paul Lambert

[Super Jonno]

Did i just read "abject failure of the manager".

 

Lol.

 

Id love to know where you think we should be.

So presently our season has been a success under Lambert?

 

As i've stated many times playing the system we are playing now from the start of the season we would be comfortably in mid table. 

 

Again black and white... does it have to be a success or an abject failure ? Is there no inbetween ?

 

Not to mention you spoke about the managers abject failings, not specifically the fortunes of the team.

 

hardly rocket science to suggest if we had the form we do now throughout the whole season we would be mid table.

 

But you dont just start playing well immediately... why do you think its that simple ? he had crap to deal with and had to implement his philosophy... that takes time.

[P3te]

 

After the summer transfers I expected to be in a relegation battle.

Never thought it would be as bad as it has.

It's improved recently but still this season has seen some new lows and I didn't believe Lambert would make so many bad decisions.

So you expected us to be shit, and we  were shit, but because we were VERY shit for a time, you take extra offence, rather than considering that we were extra shit and then started on the gradual road to improvement? You've been crowing that we were as good as down for a while now, yet you're saying now that if we stay up you'll still consider it an awful season. None of that makes any sense. If you looked at us and thought relegation battle in the summer, and we had a relegation battle, then we were in line with your expectations. For as shit as you say we were, we did pretty much what you expected, did we not? Where therefore are you complaining so much? If anything we'll surpass your pre-season expectations, despite having a woeful run in the middle

I didn't expect the worst start in our premiership history.

I didn't expect the most goals conceded in premiership history.

I didn't expect a 3 game period of losing 15-0

I didn't expect to be completely out played by Bradford City.

While I expected a battle I also didn't expect decisions from the manager to hold us back as much as they have done. Of course now his decisons are helping us he deserves credit for that and I'm happy to give it to him.

If we stay up it has been an awful season because of the lows. Under Houllier it was a relegation battle but we didn't have some of the lows we've seen this year. Under Mcleish it was a relegation battle but we didn't see some of the lows we've seen this year.

Just because I expected a relegation battle doesn't mean this season has been acceptable or something for me to praise.

If he keeps us up I've said I hope he becomes the manager i was expecting because I was truly very happy when we got him.

Pretty much none of those things actually matter though. Worst start? Who cares. Had we gotten off to a better start, but still picked up the same amount of points, what would the difference be?

 

Most goals conceded in premiership history? We havent even conceded the most premiership goals in OUR history yet for **** sake - dramatic much? Or were you talking about in a single game? Shit happens sometimes. I remember MON's team getting pretty badly done by Chelsea too - just one goal less

 

A woeful 3 game losing streak conceding 15 goals. What does that matter? Really? Had we won a game in the middle would that have made you feel better instead? It was learned from and it hasn't looked like happening again.

 

Outplayed by Bradford? So were Arsenal.

 

You didn't expect the managerial decisions to hold us back, yet you still expected a relegation battle? So what did you think would cause the relegation battle?

 

You're nothing but a rolling contradiction BJ. Anything to put the negative spin on things, no matter how much it contradicts your points along the way

[Big_John_10]

 

After the summer transfers I expected to be in a relegation battle.

Never thought it would be as bad as it has.

It's improved recently but still this season has seen some new lows and I didn't believe Lambert would make so many bad decisions.

So you expected us to be shit, and we  were shit, but because we were VERY shit for a time, you take extra offence, rather than considering that we were extra shit and then started on the gradual road to improvement? You've been crowing that we were as good as down for a while now, yet you're saying now that if we stay up you'll still consider it an awful season. None of that makes any sense. If you looked at us and thought relegation battle in the summer, and we had a relegation battle, then we were in line with your expectations. For as shit as you say we were, we did pretty much what you expected, did we not? Where therefore are you complaining so much? If anything we'll surpass your pre-season expectations, despite having a woeful run in the middle

I didn't expect the worst start in our premiership history.

I didn't expect the most goals conceded in premiership history.

I didn't expect a 3 game period of losing 15-0

I didn't expect to be completely out played by Bradford City.

While I expected a battle I also didn't expect decisions from the manager to hold us back as much as they have done. Of course now his decisons are helping us he deserves credit for that and I'm happy to give it to him.

If we stay up it has been an awful season because of the lows. Under Houllier it was a relegation battle but we didn't have some of the lows we've seen this year. Under Mcleish it was a relegation battle but we didn't see some of the lows we've seen this year.

Just because I expected a relegation battle doesn't mean this season has been acceptable or something for me to praise.

If he keeps us up I've said I hope he becomes the manager i was expecting because I was truly very happy when we got him.

Pretty much none of those things actually matter though. Worst start? Who cares. Had we gotten off to a better start, but still picked up the same amount of points, what would the difference be?

 

Most goals conceded in premiership history? We havent even conceded the most premiership goals in OUR history yet for **** sake - dramatic much? Or were you talking about in a single game? Shit happens sometimes. I remember MON's team getting pretty badly done by Chelsea too - just one goal less

 

A woeful 3 game losing streak conceding 15 goals. What does that matter? Really? Had we won a game in the middle would that have made you feel better instead? It was learned from and it hasn't looked like happening again.

 

Outplayed by Bradford? So were Arsenal.

 

You didn't expect the managerial decisions to hold us back, yet you still expected a relegation battle? So what did you think would cause the relegation battle?

 

You're nothing but a rolling contradiction BJ. Anything to put the negative spin on things, no matter how much it contradicts your points along the way

So anything that happens during a season doesn't matter as long as the final position is ok with you?

Why watch football then? Why comment on football? Why enjoy football? Of course it matters otherwise no one would watch or care and just wait for the final league table. Why post anything positive as well then? It doesn't matter to you until the end of the season.

Ridiculous viewpoint.

What am i contradicting? I just said houlliers year and mcleish's year were relegation battles and they did not see some of the lows we've seen this year. Hence i expected a relegation battle but still didn't think we'd be as bad as we have done because guess what? We've been in a relegation battle and not been this bad before.

Most goals conceded in premiership history? We havent even conceded the most premiership goals in OUR history yet for **** sake - dramatic much? Or were you talking about in a single game? Shit happens sometimes. I remember MON's team getting pretty badly done by Chelsea too - just one goal less

I'm talking about our premiership history but that doesn't matter to you. I guess if we'd broke our premiership record of goals scored you'd say the same? Yeah right.

[Super Jonno]

You dont seem to be taking the context into consideration BJ. When have we ever been in such poor shape prior going into this season ? When have we ever worked under such financial restraints? When have we had so many issues going on off the pitch ?

 

Breaking those records is bad, and nothing to be proud of but you have judge this season differently to past ones.

[StefanAVFC]

If we'd have lost THOSE 3-0 games 1-0, 1-0 and 1-0 we'd be on exactly the same points, but i doubt Lambert would be the target of such vitriol. We HAVE made progress, you must be blind if you can't see that. Fans of other teams who probably hated us last year don't want us to go down because they all recognise if we can get through this season, we'll have a really decent side next year.

 

And anyway, isn't football about entertainment? I've been entertained on numerous occasions this year. For that, it's been a fun season. I've never had such highs and lows as a Villa fan personally. 

[smetrov]

Re the formation - Didn't he play 3cb's in the absence of Vlaar ?  - The only other choice was to play Baker, with only few games under his belt alongside Clark, or Clark\Herd - If my memory serves me correct he pretty dropped it, after Vlaar was fit ?

[Big_John_10]

You dont seem to be taking the context into consideration BJ. When have we ever been in such poor shape prior going into this season ? When have we ever worked under such financial restraints? When have we had so many issues going on off the pitch ?

Breaking those records is bad, and nothing to be proud of but you have judge this season differently to past ones.

I've taken it into context and i still think keeping us up was the minimum that should be achived.

Our improvement since HT at newcastle shows this season could have been a lot better.

Fully give him credit for recent improvements though.

If we'd have lost THOSE 3-0 games 1-0, 1-0 and 1-0 we'd be on exactly the same points, but i doubt Lambert would be the target of such vitriol. We HAVE made progress, you must be blind if you can't see that. Fans of other teams who probably hated us last year don't want us to go down because they all recognise if we can get through this season, we'll have a really decent side next year.

And anyway, isn't football about entertainment? I've been entertained on numerous occasions this year. For that, it's been a fun season. I've never had such highs and lows as a Villa fan personally.

Entertainment at times has been very good.

Little point saying if we did this or did that. You could mentione endless if possibilities to suit arguments.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Big_John_10

[P3te]

So anything that happens during a season doesn't matter as long as the final position is ok with you?

Why watch football then? Why comment on football? Why enjoy football? Of course it matters otherwise no one would watch or care and just wait for the final league table. Why post anything positive as well then? It doesn't matter to you until the end of the season.

Ridiculous viewpoint.

What am i contradicting? I just said houlliers year and mcleish's year were relegation battles and they did not see some of the lows we've seen this year. Hence i expected a relegation battle but still didn't think we'd be as bad as we have done because guess what? We've been in a relegation battle and not been this bad before.

Most goals conceded in premiership history? We havent even conceded the most premiership goals in OUR history yet for **** sake - dramatic much? Or were you talking about in a single game? Shit happens sometimes. I remember MON's team getting pretty badly done by Chelsea too - just one goal less

I'm talking about our premiership history but that doesn't matter to you. I guess if we'd broke our premiership record of goals scored you'd say the same? Yeah right.

Okay, in order...

 

1) Progress is all that matters to me, not league placing (once we're not bottom 3). We're making progress now

 

2) McLeish's Villa got 38 points. We're 5 points off that with 6 games left. We'll likely pass it. McLeish's Villa started reasonably then fell apart, that's always worrying. What's less worrying is starting badly (remember, that's just continuing on from where McLeish left off) and then improving, which is what we've done. We've  been a LOT worse before than we are right now. We were very very bad at the  start, but that's because there were a lot of inexperienced kids there. They look to have turned a corner though, so as long as that continues, what does the first few months matter in the bigger picture? You'd have run Ferguson out  of United if you were a Man U fan after his first few seasons, let's be honest.

 

3) We haven't conceded the most in our premiership history yet though. We will, but at the moment we haven't passed that point yet. Unless you're talking about a single match, in which yes, we did. We conceded 1 more than we did in a match under O'Neill

[P3te]

I've taken it into context and i still think keeping us up was the minimum that should be achived.

If that's the case then you wouldn't have expected us to be in a relegation battle. Because to expect that means you expected there was a chance we could go down. If staying up was the minimum you expected, then you wouldn't have expected a relegation battle

[P3te]

Our improvement since HT at newcastle shows this season could have been a lot better.

Maybe it does, or  maybe it shows that the kids needed a longer time to settle into the team than anyone expected, and once it finally clicked we were always going to look a lot better. That was our clicking point, whatever caused it or led up to it, that was the point where Villa stopped looking clueless and started looking like a team with plenty of potential. Had we played the same system from August, we may never have reached that point - so it's impossible to say we would have. Maybe that awful run will be the thing that provides a catalyst for Villa to improve  immensely. We'll never know

[Big_John_10]

Our improvement since HT at newcastle shows this season could have been a lot better.

Maybe it does, or  maybe it shows that the kids needed a longer time to settle into the team than anyone expected, and once it finally clicked we were always going to look a lot better. That was our clicking point, whatever caused it or led up to it, that was the point where Villa stopped looking clueless and started looking like a team with plenty of potential. Had we played the same system from August, we may never have reached that point - so it's impossible to say we would have. Maybe that awful run will be the thing that provides a catalyst for Villa to improve  immensely. We'll never know

You think its just a coincidence we looked much better once we played with attacking width which is something fans had been crying out for all season?

[P3te]

 

Our improvement since HT at newcastle shows this season could have been a lot better.

Maybe it does, or  maybe it shows that the kids needed a longer time to settle into the team than anyone expected, and once it finally clicked we were always going to look a lot better. That was our clicking point, whatever caused it or led up to it, that was the point where Villa stopped looking clueless and started looking like a team with plenty of potential. Had we played the same system from August, we may never have reached that point - so it's impossible to say we would have. Maybe that awful run will be the thing that provides a catalyst for Villa to improve  immensely. We'll never know

You think its just a coincidence we looked much better once we played with attacking width which is something fans had been crying out for all season?

I think there's most likely a bit more to it than just that

[Big_John_10]

what does the first few months matter in the bigger picture?

If we're a comfortable mid table team next year then it doesn't.

But that can be said about many things. You can only comment on whats going on at the moment. And when it was happening it mattered and until we are 100% safe it matters.

[Big_John_10]

 

Our improvement since HT at newcastle shows this season could have been a lot better.

Maybe it does, or  maybe it shows that the kids needed a longer time to settle into the team than anyone expected, and once it finally clicked we were always going to look a lot better. That was our clicking point, whatever caused it or led up to it, that was the point where Villa stopped looking clueless and started looking like a team with plenty of potential. Had we played the same system from August, we may never have reached that point - so it's impossible to say we would have. Maybe that awful run will be the thing that provides a catalyst for Villa to improve  immensely. We'll never know

You think its just a coincidence we looked much better once we played with attacking width which is something fans had been crying out for all season?

I think there's most likely a bit more to it than just that

We changed formation at HT against newcastle and instantly looked like a completely different team.

Most fans had been crying out for proper width in the team and as soon as we put that in place we instantly started picking up more points and scoring more goals.

Thats not a coincidence to me.

[P3te]

 

 

 

Our improvement since HT at newcastle shows this season could have been a lot better.

Maybe it does, or  maybe it shows that the kids needed a longer time to settle into the team than anyone expected, and once it finally clicked we were always going to look a lot better. That was our clicking point, whatever caused it or led up to it, that was the point where Villa stopped looking clueless and started looking like a team with plenty of potential. Had we played the same system from August, we may never have reached that point - so it's impossible to say we would have. Maybe that awful run will be the thing that provides a catalyst for Villa to improve  immensely. We'll never know

You think its just a coincidence we looked much better once we played with attacking width which is something fans had been crying out for all season?

I think there's most likely a bit more to it than just that

We changed formation at HT against newcastle and instantly looked like a completely different team.

Most fans had been crying out for proper width in the team and as soon as we put that in place we instantly started picking up more points and scoring more goals.

Thats not a coincidence to me.

so what happened at the start of the season when we were playing with width and performing horribly?

[VillaForever1970]

Again people claiming to understand giving someone TIME but with a big BUT, so not giving them time at all.

Its like saying you'll give them time but only if the results are decent and to your specific liking, giving someone time is taking the rough with the smooth, not pissing and moaning during the rough.

[sne]

Again people claiming to understand giving someone TIME but with a big BUT, so not giving them time at all.

Its like saying you'll give them time but only if the results are decent and to your specific liking, giving someone time is taking the rough with the smooth, not pissing and moaning during the rough.

Thank you for once again explaining the meaning of giving someone time.

The thing is thou that giving someone time might just as likelly turn out to be the wrong decision as the right one. 

 

You might be convinced that Lambert is the right one for us, I am not yet, only TIME will tell 

 

Edit: Or are you saying that anyone, given time will be a success?

Edited April 8, 2013 by sne

[Big_John_10]

 

 

 

Our improvement since HT at newcastle shows this season could have been a lot better.

Maybe it does, or  maybe it shows that the kids needed a longer time to settle into the team than anyone expected, and once it finally clicked we were always going to look a lot better. That was our clicking point, whatever caused it or led up to it, that was the point where Villa stopped looking clueless and started looking like a team with plenty of potential. Had we played the same system from August, we may never have reached that point - so it's impossible to say we would have. Maybe that awful run will be the thing that provides a catalyst for Villa to improve  immensely. We'll never know

You think its just a coincidence we looked much better once we played with attacking width which is something fans had been crying out for all season?

I think there's most likely a bit more to it than just that

We changed formation at HT against newcastle and instantly looked like a completely different team.

Most fans had been crying out for proper width in the team and as soon as we put that in place we instantly started picking up more points and scoring more goals.

Thats not a coincidence to me.

so what happened at the start of the season when we were playing with width and performing horribly?

Which games were these? I dom't remember many games were we played with width like we do now.

We played with 4 midfield players in a very narrow formation and at times have tried to play wingbacks to add width.

Having gabby and weimman adding width to the team has improved us a lot.

[Rob182]

I thought at the start of the season we played the 4-2-3-1 formation, then we went to the 3-5-2 formation, then back to the 4-2-3-1 ?

[Morpheus]

 

 

 

 

People claim they understand giving a manager time, but they really dont.

 

Nail on the head. A few months is not giving time. I appreciate if the manager is not good enough, its just not working out or if results are truly appalling then you have to call time. But with Lambert he had to deal with a huge amount of issues, coupled with him trying to play football with a team who lack experience, quality in a number of positions and importantly, the Villa players from the previous season had a season of playing completely different football ( if i can call it that ).

 

If we go down, I wont shift the blame to much on Lambert. Certainly mistakes have been made hear and there which have cost us a few points but alot of the points thrown away he cant legislate for, its just our team panicking, put it down to experience put it down to the situation at the time, but I have always understood how were progressing under him and i can recognise where he wants to take us. For that reason, I am more than happy to give him time. 

'Trying to play football with a team who lack experience' eh? Who purchased that lack of experience in the first place when there was already inexperience trying to break into the first team?

 

"Progressing under him?" That progression has seen us battling relegation for the best part of the season and breaking records no manager would want on his CV.

 

Did he have much choice considering the positions that needed filling ? Was it viable with the financial restrictions and wage reduction were going through at the moment to go and find a older player with more experience ? probably not, because they would want more money and if they didnt then Id question their quality. He brought in Westwood, Lowton, Bennet and Benteke who are young. Benteke is our player of the season and Lowton and Westwood have been good enough but both showing promise. Only Bennet can really questioned out of Lamberts "inexperienced" signings.

 

The likes of Delph, Weimann, Bannan, Baker and Clarke were all at the club already and are hardly seasoned pro's. I dont like it when people make out he went crazy on youth when he didnt, but given the circumstances we found ourselves in, and the amount of players we needed to bring in players who perhaps lacked a little experience were likely to come in.

 

Do you see everything so black and white ? It is undoubtedly clear that he is installing a philosophy of football in this club, of progressive football. Football that can push clubs on and ultimately be succesfull. We have gone from god awful football, that never wins you games to developing a style of play, which in time and with better players will put us in fantastic stead to push on. Thats progression. Anyone who thought we wouldnt be involved in a relegation scrap ( admiteddly not this much of one ) was naive. It takes more than a season to sort this pish out. 

 

He has made mistakes, I dont deny that but keeping a manager who installs belief and confidence in players like he does, coupled with the way he tries to play football is important.

No i don't see everything black and white. In previous posts i have commended Lambert for actually changing the system and have been one of the very few posters lately who have continually stated that we would stay up if Lambert persisted with correct system.

 

I also recognise that both manager and team may be finally showing signs of growing together in the right direction but that does not exclude Lambert from criticism, criticism which is warranted for his decisions on team selection and tactics for almost three quarters of the season which has resulted in a relegation dogfight that we're still not free from yet.

 

You also cannot ignore the present state of our defence which has been rebuilt by Lambert. I have seen time and time again the excuse that he had limited funding which to replace outgoing players of experience. Did he have to get rid of both Collins and Cuellar immediately? Could there not have been a 'progression' of changing our defence over two to three seasons instead of introducing players without any Premiership experience to form a new defence. That alone invited problems and weaknesses which are still there. Someone posted that it was Lambert's decision to go with youth and thats why he got the job and i would tend to believe that as Lambert has previously stated that the chairman did make funding available for more established Premiership footballers before the season started. You remember the bid for Dempsey.

 

He also had the opportunity to address our weakness at DM with the possible purchase of Diame on a free who went to West Ham. He purchased KEA and the less said about that the better.

 

Just because we now have had a few decent results against some very poor teams shouldn't convince any fan of our club that  Lambert has become a very good manager literally over night. He hasn't, but hopefully he will have learnt a lot this season from his mistakes and won't make the same again next season when hopefully we are still in the Premiership.

 

You missed my point in regards to the black and white comment I think. With him, there is a clear philosophy of the kind of football we play, its one which doesnt have a low ceiling. That kind of football, will give you success. The better players we get in, the better that football becomes and so on. I was making a comment about the attacking / football philosophy of the coach rather than a specific formation he implements.

 

I wouldnt dream of saying Lambert doesnt deserve criticism. That would be daft, and would make me look like a mug. I completely appreciate he has made mistakes, that being said I feel your being overly critical of him. He was trying to find a system, I cant knock him for trying 4-4-2 diamond and 3-5-2. Progressive thinkers should not be dashed aside, but i appreciate a few games were lost on those decisions. He who dares wins and all that, things change in football and I get the impression Lambert is one who likes to be infront of the pack rather than chasing and playing catch up.

 

Alot of our losses / points thrown away have come down to silly individual errors, ones they shouldnt make and although Lambert has to take criticism for some games I dont think its fair to blame him for 3/4 poor performance. We have been playing well enough since January, could be so different if we didnt concede last minute against Swansea ( although we didnt deserve the win ) and held onto 2 goal leads against WBA and Everton. I know thats all IFS and BUTS, but the point remains I feel people have been overly critical of him.

 

Collins yes, he did. He and the club want players who want to play for Villa, who have the right attitude and hunger to suceed. Things had gone sour with Collins and you have to recognise that. He was a disruptive influence on the team and that cannot be tolerated in high performance sport. Did Cuellars contract not expire ? Diame would of been lovely, its all very well in hindsight isnt it ( although I believe you mentioned it preseason ? ), but why didnt all the other clubs go for him ? How do you know we didnt. You make it sound simple.

KEA hasnt been the player we all thought and hoped. He recognised the problem though and tried to address it, ultimately it didnt work out but you cant knock him to much as he tried to address it, and all managers have flops in their history.

 

I have been saying this for longer than the last 5 games, I watched him closely at Norwich. He is a progressive manager who I want here long term. 

He had plenty of time to find a system in pre-season had he not? He has taken far too long to find the correct system to suit the players available and thats why we are currently in a relegation battle. Also remember how many players he purchased in the summer. Good managers buy players to fit the system not the other way about and Lambert not only failed to do that but also failed at how best to use the players already at the club. You are trying to excuse an elementary mistake which the vast majority of good managers wouldn't have made so i do not think i'm being over critical at all!

 

Your saying that Collins was a disruptive influence within the team. Can you actually prove that or is that just your opinion?

 

Cuellar was out of contract but could Lambert not have retained his services in the same way he did with Guzan?

 

No i'm not party to information to determine whether we ever were interested in Diame but we should have been and he probably would have been on a lot less wages than Sissoko who we were interested in.

 

Lambert may indeed be a progressive manager who likes to play attacking football but that alone won't make him into a good manager as we've already seen this season.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Morpheus