Child Benefit Changes Come in to effect today (07/01/2013)

[ender4]

It annoys me that wages for some hard working people in this country are so disgustingly low that they have to rely on benefit top ups to achieve a living wage.

so maybe the minimum wage should be increased, rather than just giving out free money to millions of people.

and the accepted Living Wage in the UK (exc London) is £14.5k, the top-up given by the government exceeds this level.

Edited January 7, 2013 by ender4

[bromsgrove_avfc]

I can't speak for Andyh but my post was exaggerated in reply to Jadenb42 comment that he has no sympathy for people that have lost a benefit available just cause they are spending their money wrong? I find comments like that pretty repellent. Whilst I know there are many reasons why people don't end up earning a good wage (again the comment about work hard/be more ambitious was posted to show perspective to the previous comment) I can't abide people who think everyone that does earn well, doesn't deserve it and owe them something just because they don't. I never came from a wealthy background my first two jobs were managing a newsagent and an electrical apprentice but I clawed myself up to decent income.

I do agree with a benefit system and I think we should look after the needy and I'm more than happy for my taxes to help out the ill, the disabled and old, Kids that have come out of bad backgrounds that need a head start etc. etc.. I'm all for it. However I don't think we should be supplementing peoples income so they can have sky/ more kids/ cigarettes and booze. Jaden is right, people earning 50k that are moaning they NEED the benefit should cut back and live within their means but that applies to people earning 15k too. Why should you get another 5k in benefits?

I agree with andyh CB should be handed out in voucher form. To be honest I don't need the CB I just find it ridiculous that my neighbours with a higher joint income than me still get it. I just want a level playing field even if it means the government save more money and then for them to spend it correctly!

Edited January 7, 2013 by bromsgrove_avfc

[villamark]

I don't agree with vouchers being handed out for benefits, think there would be a certain element of stigma involved with using them.

[andyh]

I am very much in agreement with Bromsgrove and posted for effect in response to that particular post.

But, just because someone is on a decent salary, it does not mean they should be villified for it. The same way that someone on a low income should not be judged.

People on around £50K are not hooray Henries, or the 'considerably richer than you' brigade, they are generally normal working people who happen to earn a decent salary.

I suspect most of the people who are on a salary of £50k - £60K are older, and may well have acheived a decent level of income due to incremental increases over a long period of time.

Stopping the CB as a universal payment is probably the right thing.

But, I still mantain that it should be paid is such a way that it is used as it was intended, not to fund, mobile phones, sky television or ciggies.

Edited January 7, 2013 by andyh

[chrisp65]

looked fairly obvious to me that Bromsgrove was posting a bit tongue in cheek but with a valid point, I'd have put something similar if I'd got in first

If you obese non-strivers can barely open your curtains and get a decent job, how does my tax bailing you out help incentivize you to buck up your ideas? Whereas, if I've got the striver gene and earn proper money, why penalise my spending power when the economy needs boosting?

back in the real world, the measure was always going to be divisive and you do wonder, with politicians and advisers earning so much and being so numerous, why can't they either come up with a workable fair policy, or properly explain what they are aiming to achieve? That goes for all parties.

Doubtless they will now try and avert the backlash with some sort of rebated tax deduction credit on the opted out benefit threshold. Or some such bollocks.

[villa4europe]

It annoys me when I hear about people increasing their income by 25% through benefits.

Maybe you shouldn't have had a kid ?

i agree with this, if you cant afford kids, dont have them

i understand that some peoples situation changes and i thought that was what the benefit system was for, a safety net, instead having kids in this country is a career, one that somehow pays more than the vast majority of jobs, how many people have kids with the intention of never working? how many have kids because they know it gets them out of their parents house? the child benefit system in this country is well beyond broken

i think some people will have to look at their lifestyle and make some changes rather than sit there with sky and iphones and expensive trainers and moan about how poor they are, but instead the sense of entitlement will kick in

[blandy]

it's a poor, poor example of policy-making.

Regardless of the political aspects of almost all their policies, it's this consistent messing everything up that for me sums them up. There are very few tory policies that I agree with - in fact I can't think of anything specific, but you'd kind of hope for competence from a Government. But they're not, they're incompetent and mess everything up (sometimes for the better) - sell off the forests, erm actually no reverse that. Tax pasties, er no oops. We're all in it together, so ultra rich folk, have a tax cut. The greenest Government ever...doh! Andy Coulson's innoc....gah! It just goes on and on. Cull the Badgers...oops, nope. Grow the economy by 6 percent to this point in time...no.

They're just a bunch of bumbling f*****s, with some vindictive knee jerk policies to sort them and their mates out.

[mockingbird_franklin]

Exactly - as others have stated above that is part of the plan for this, removes them from "doing the dirty work"

In the past few days there have been various articles in the Indi and Grud etc about the whole demonizing of the lower paid and those who claim any benefits, good reads and very true. There is a lot of mud being thrown by certain elements in the Gvmt and some of it is sticking

From experience, my son has a recognised disabilty thet severely effects his everyday life, this is what is happening with the genuinely disabled, I've lost count of the number of times I've seen articles about the changes to Disability Living Allowance with quotes from various mambers of the Government on how the changes are designed to stop the benefit being seen as a means of avoiding getting a job, when the reality couldn't be futher from the truth, for one DLA is a non means tested benefit paid to people who's sickness or disabilty puts then at a severe disadvantage in getting or holding down a job and who may incur extra everyday expenses because of their disabilty, Its there to help people out who through no fault of there own are disadvantaged, You recieve DLA wether you work or not. and after experiencing the biased and basically fixed system for ESA (Employment support Allowance) that PIP (DLA replacement) will also use, i fear for my sons future finacial security and indipendance,

Edited January 7, 2013 by mockingbird_franklin

[blandy]

I can't abide people who think everyone that does earn well, doesn't deserve it and owe them something just because they don't. I never came from a wealthy background my first two jobs were managing a newsagent and an electrical apprentice but I clawed myself up to decent income.

Personally, I think that most influential thing of what anyone earns is down to luck.

We inherit our genes - whether they make us clever, or gifted at sport, or naturally able at languages, or artistic merit, or with strong caring empathy ... that will hugely influence careers.

Where we're born - where there are good or bad schools. Whether our parents are wealthy or poor, how many siblings we have. Our health. All these things make a huge difference to how much we end up earning.

I'm not saying people don't work hard, or you don't, or anyone else is lazy etc. and I don't begrudge anyone their money (well I do but they're exceptions). But I think when people claim they are rich because they work(ed) hard, it's almsot always a massive exaggeration of one factor over many others. You/we are rich or poor because of luck, basically.

[drat01]

I am claiming Godwin's law type post here.

A certain Austrian based a lot of justification for imposing quite obscene powers by constantly feeding lies and propaganda to the ignorant masses. Result? The people believed that Jews and other "under classes" were responsible for all of the problems that faced Germany and the people were quite happy for the Gvmt to sort them out.

As said, and as we have seen on this thread, any Benefit claimant must be a scrounger, constantly watching Sky, smoking fags and taking all of my money that I have paid in taxes. How do I know that? because that is part of the myth that is peddled by those in charge. Despite the reality being that many benefit claimants are in work, struggling to bring up families, look after elderly relatives, struggling to pay fuel bills etc etc. Bollox to the people that steal billions from the country through avoidance of taxes, nuts to those who get paid obscene amounts but contribute so little back to the very environment they take from, it's all the fault of those who have to rely on help from the rest of the community, i.e. the state.

Edited January 7, 2013 by drat01

[Davkaus]

As said, and as we have seen on this thread, any Benefit claimant must be a scrounger, constantly watching Sky, smoking fags and taking all of my money that I have paid in taxes. How do I know that? because that is part of the myth that is peddled by those in charge. Despite the reality being that many benefit claimants are in work, struggling to bring up families, look after elderly relatives, struggling to pay fuel bills etc etc. Bollox to the people that steal billions from the country through avoidance of taxes, nuts to those who get paid obscene amounts but contribute so little back to the very environment they take from, it's all the fault of those who have to rely on help from the rest of the community, i.e. the state.

Oh what a load of arse.

I don't give a toss what people who get child benefit get up to, but if they earn well over twice the average British wage, they have no business receiving benefits.

[peterms]

Oh what a load of arse.

I don't give a toss what people who get child benefit get up to, but if they earn well over twice the average British wage, they have no business receiving benefits.

At this point, perhaps it would be helpful to have a tax lawyer or tax accountant explain to us a few of the many allowances of far greater value which are available to people with incomes many thousands of times the average British wage.

It's always good to give discussions like this a bit of perspective.

[drat01]

Oh what a load of arse.

I don't give a toss what people who get child benefit get up to, but if they earn well over twice the average British wage, they have no business receiving benefits.

Firstly that was me that typed that not AndyH

As Peter rightly says there are many "loop holes" that are daily exploited by the richer parts of society that cost the state far more than is ever paid out for benefits. You may think "its a load of arse" but thems the facts

There are people on benefits who "play the system" for certain no one is saying that there is not, but there are far more who are honest claimants and are what the whole benefit system is there to help. I am struggling to see where anyone has actually said that people earning lots of money, i.e. high earners, with a lot of disposable income should receive benefits, maybe you can point out where and who has said that.

[snowychap]

Personally, I think that most influential thing of what anyone earns is down to luck.

We inherit our genes - whether they make us clever, or gifted at sport, or naturally able at languages, or artistic merit, or with strong caring empathy ... that will hugely influence careers.

Where we're born - where there are good or bad schools. Whether our parents are wealthy or poor, how many siblings we have. Our health. All these things make a huge difference to how much we end up earning.

I'm not saying people don't work hard, or you don't, or anyone else is lazy etc. and I don't begrudge anyone their money (well I do but they're exceptions). But I think when people claim they are rich because they work(ed) hard, it's almsot always a massive exaggeration of one factor over many others. You/we are rich or poor because of luck, basically.

Very much agree, Pete.

[Eames]

Pete and drat make excellent points.

It's too simple to boil this debate down to Benefits BAD, Allowances GOOD.

Perhaps the issue the the way that all benefits/allowances are targeted. A truely fair system would work with the biggest benefits (both cash and percentage terms) going to the least well off, with those who earn most receiving neither. But then you get into tax rates and the whole thing goes silly.

[drat01]

Pete and drat make excellent points.

It's too simple to boil this debate down to Benefits BAD, Allowances GOOD.

Perhaps the issue the the way that all benefits/allowances are targeted. A truely fair system would work with the biggest benefits (both cash and percentage terms) going to the least well off, with those who earn most receiving neither. But then you get into tax rates and the whole thing goes silly.

Interesting comments from IDS just on the radio. A lot of the basis of his so called arguments were "Ahhh but Labour ......" which showed that he had no real arguments to the points being raised. He accused "Labour and others against this country ..." of not wanting welfare reform which is frankly untrue. Welfare evaluation is an ongoing process that will never stop. Circumstances change and like so many things they need to be under constant review to ensure fairness and reasonable use. But that does not then give the Gvmt a green light to impose ill thought out benefit cuts, attacks on the poorer in society nor does it allow them to use benefit claimants as the reason why cuts are needed in various budgets, which is what this whole propaganda exercise seems to be doing - see this thread to see how it's working.

For simple maths there are much bigger fish to fry in terms of savings as said with tax avoidance and evasion. The whole marketing spin of Cameron was "we are in this together" which has proven to be one of the biggest lies ever to be uttered by a politician. The rich are getting richer that is a fact, the poor are getting poorer, These changes will affect a lot of the so called "classes" but very little in real terms will hit the richer / upper classes. IDS is a nasty piece of work, a failed leader of the Tory party, one who was rejected by this country and he appears to behaving like the spoiled kid who was not invited to the birthday party so now chooses to pee in the jelly.

Sounbite ideas and policies are not what is needed is evolution rather than revolution of benefits / taxation / contributions / social care and a realization that society means all not just a few who cannot fight back

[bromsgrove_avfc]

But I think when people claim they are rich because they work(ed) hard, it's almsot always a massive exaggeration of one factor over many others. You/we are rich or poor because of luck, basically.

I agree with both your posts Blandy. The Government is incompetent but I think all parties are if I'm honest. As for luck being a factor, again I agree but I also think you can certainly help make your own luck as well. There is a quote “I'm a greater believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it”. If you could analyse a cross section of peoples lives I'm sure everyone would catch a similar amounts of 'lucky' breaks. It's whether people choose to take them or not?

I've never claimed to be rich, I'm far from it, I just have a nice comfortable life. My wife doesn't work as she brings up our three kids so our household income is just the equivalent of two average earners but I'm more than happy with that. I also never claimed to work harder than the next man. I just pushed myself to take opportunities presented to me and do the best I could with them.

[jadenb42]

Some right bollox aimed at me from my post.

Yes I claim benefits to top up my wage but so do a lot of families on low income in this country. I don't claim to live a life of luxury,I wish I could afford to smoke, drink, have sky tv but in my case and probably like many more families it just a way of getting by. Yes there is people who abuse the system in many ways from rich to poor, fact I'd be better off not working. We all get hit by price rises, what ever salary your on. Gas and electricity being the biggest killer in my house, that's a different story.

As for a couple of you saying I should get a better job shouldn't have kids I won't waste my time on you.

All I was saying was that I heard people on radio moaning their CB was going to be stopped and saying they cant afford to lose it. I was just implying they're spending there money wrong if so. People on far less money get by.

[blandy]

I agree with both your posts Blandy. The Government is incompetent but I think all parties are if I'm honest. As for luck being a factor, again I agree but I also think you can certainly help make your own luck as well. There is a quote “I'm a greater believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it”. If you could analyse a cross section of peoples lives I'm sure everyone would catch a similar amounts of 'lucky' breaks. It's whether people choose to take them or not?...

Yes, on the parties all being incompetent, totally. I personally think much of the reason is due to the background of the MPs - those in cabinets etc are mostly all from a narrow sub-sector - Privately eductated, white, middle aged men, who've never done a "proper" job outside politics. They have no experience of living with the consequences of their decisions and actions, and so can't learn lessons, and they have no supporting experience.

As for Arnold Palmer (or was it another golfer?) quote. I think you can apply it to a person, once he or she is in a situation - a golfer practicing harder than his opponent may do better, but you can't apply it to him being a Golfer, rather than a cleaner or a doctor. Maybe he wasn't born clever enough to be a Doctor, maybe by being typically a european or American from a wealthy family, able to afford golf membership fees for their kid, and a one on one tutor froma young age, and having luckily inherited a good eye and motor skills and hand-eye co-ordination...and living near a golf course and so on...that's how he got to be a professional golfer. Luck. Millions don't have that opportunity. That's my point really - the direction we go in is more outside of our own influence or control than within our control. yes, plenty people woprk hard with what they're given, and good luck to them and the rewards they can get. II just think that more recongnition of where they are not being so much their own making, and more circumstance would be beneficial in terms of their views on other people's situation.

It's funny how millionaire cabinet ministers, the sons of millionaires, are talking up just now "strivers" - the people who get up at 6 am and clean their offices and so on. I mean did the MPs get to be millionaire cabinet ministers by their hard work, and the cleaners working long hours for little money are poor because they don't work hard?

it's bollex isn't it?

[LondonLax]

Its actually worse to be earning £50,000 x 1 rather than £25,000 x2 though isn't is as you're only getting 1 tax free element (first £8k or so).

Take home pay from 1x £50k salary is £35,781, take home pay from £25,000 salary is £19.533, x2 earners is £39,066 or £3,285 more!! Not only are the £49,999 earners still getting the Child Benefit they're also benefitting from 2 tax free elements of their salary.

Childcare costs stop parents going back to work. It would not be worth my wife working as she probably wouldn't earn any more than it would cost to have 2 children in full-time childcare.

Your second point somewhat negates your first point doesn't it?

You may get some bonus tax free threshold from two incomes and with this new policy you get to keep child benifits with two incomes where a single earner doesn't but all that is negated by the cost of having to have full time child care 5 days a week.

The person who is most **** is actually the single parent on £50k.