U.S. Politics

[snowychap]

3 minutes ago, blandy said:

Protest against something that actually matters.

That, in essence, is the issue with your comments. It's not up to you to decide for those people who want to protest what is or isn't 'something that actually matters'. That's up to you to decide when considering whether you go and protest about something.

[StefanAVFC]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

I agree protests can work, when they're focused, have a clear aim and are widely seen as having a "just cause".

Sorry, but women (or men, or people who don't care to define themselves by gender..) in the UK going on a march to "protest" about Trump being elected doesn't meet those criteria for me. He's not their Pres. the UK isn't the US, he was fairly elected under the US system, yes he's horrible and ignorant and all that, but in this instance there's no "point" to the protests IMO.

 

8 minutes ago, blandy said:

He's NOT an imposter, though, is he. He was legally and fairly elected by the US electorate.

I'm not fan of him or May, far from it, but it's absolutely standard for our leader to sycophant the US leader. Blair being Bush's poodle, Thatcher - Reagan, and so on. Of course the UK people don't have to like or agree with it and are quite free to march or whatever else. Good on 'em. Won't change a thing, mind and they can post it on their Facebooks and twitters and feel good.

Protest against something that actually matters. That can improve their and our lives, not the legal election of (albeit a tool) as President of somewhere else.

This is such a disappointing point of view.

If you actually believe that people are protesting solely because of Trump being elected rather than his treatment of women(woman's march) stance towards Muslims (now) his anti-science stances (planned science march) and so on, then may as well shut the debate down now.

Because there have been protests so far its easy to collate protests with a general anti-trump sentiment but each planned one so far has been for a different,focused reason.

the fact that we need to have so many across so many policies shows how horrific Trump's views are IMO

[blandy]

Just now, snowychap said:

That, in essence, is the issue with your comments. It's not up to you to decide for those people who want to protest what is or isn't 'something that actually matters'. That's up to you to decide when considering whether you go and protest about something.

You're quite right.

It is however up to me to choose what I comment on, on a discussion board, though. It is my opinion that....[what I wrote]. Your opinion is different, valid and interesting and this discussion is interesting to me, and if I hadn't posted my views, then none of that which you and others wrote would have been read by me and made me better informed of what others think. So thank you.

 

[snowychap]

8 minutes ago, blandy said:

He's not their Pres. the UK isn't the US, he was fairly elected under the US system, yes he's horrible and ignorant and all that, but in this instance there's no "point" to the protests IMO.

Yet you're repeating something which may or may not be the reason why they/some of them have gone on the protest.

You dismiss another potential reason (about addressing the attitude of their own government and politicians) as 'naive'. So what if it is? Naive doesn't necessarily mean impotent.

I get the impression, I'm afraid, that you are scraping around for reasons to justify applying your derision of certain subsets of protestors to all those protesting (even allowing for the get out card of 'but good luck to them').

Edited January 29, 2017 by snowychap

[blandy]

7 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Because there have been protests so far its easy to collate protests with a general anti-trump sentiment but each planned one so far has been for a different,focused reason.

Dunno if that's my reading, Stefan

the MEN reported the organiser saying 

Quote

“It is not particularly against Trump, it is non-partisan.

“There has been a trend for policy that is anti women at the moment. The idea is tied in with the Black Lives Matter movement as well.

“It is as much a celebration, as well as a protest. We are trying to raise awareness and show solidarity.”

The event in America started after a retired lawyer set up a Facebook event planning to protest the inauguration.

It all seemed a bit unfocused to me. Like I've said Good on 'em. I wish them well. It's all just a bit woolly to me, a bit millennial. Sorry.

Chanting "keep your tiny hands away from my underpants" was funny and sharp, but still...

[Rugeley Villa]

18 minutes ago, snowychap said:

I'm sorry but you need to clarify what you are getting at as it seems to be confused and confusing - we have moved forward regarding discrimination of black people. But you can go too far forward . What do you mean by this?

America need to rediscover its Christian values - I mean what precisely does this mean with regards to non-whites, non-christians, accused 'non-patriots', accused 'subversives', homosexuals, people seeking abortions, women, &c.?

We are throwing too much into the melting pot. I'm not on about going back to Christian extremism but America is a Christian country, well according to Obama it weren't but a return to some degree of nationalism won't do it any harm. After all American folk are first priority right. Totally agree with trumps cut back on immigration from Muslim countries as that is a problem that needs sorting, although Saudi Arabia is not on the list. Why wasn't Christian refugees a priority for Obama? Look after your own then worry about other people. carrying  on with liberal views and you will lose your country. 

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, snowychap said:

you are scraping around for reasons to justify applying your derision of certain subsets of protestors

I'm out.

[Keyblade]

9 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I think we need to move away from this way of thinking. 

Why should we care about one stranger over another just because they won a random lottery which meant they were born on the same piece of land as yourself?

And this presidency doesn't look like it will look after its own people. It will look after a select group that match what this president deems important. 

Especially when said person is the descendant of an immigrant themselves, just like everybody else.

[DCJonah]

1 minute ago, Rugeley Villa said:

We are throwing too much into the melting pot. I'm not on about going back to Christian extremism but America is a Christian country, well according to Obama it weren't but a return to some degree of nationalism won't do it any harm. After all American folk are first priority right. Totally agree with trumps cut back on immigration from Muslim countries as that is a problem that needs sorting, although Saudi Arabia is not on the list. Why wasn't Christian refugees a priority for Obama? Look after your own then worry about other people. carrying  on with liberal views and you will lose your country. 

What does lose your country mean or look like?

[StefanAVFC]

oh dear

The thought process that a Christian Syrian is any more of 'your own' than a Muslim Syrian is sickening tbh.

still need some good Christian values that America should go back to please RV

[Rugeley Villa]

Just now, DCJonah said:

What does lose your country mean or look like?

Where people from another country have more rights than you. Well it will probably look terrible, some of it already does.

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

Why wasn't Christian refugees a priority for Obama?

Um, because there weren't many? Refugees anyway are just human beings. Religion or lack of religion is, was and still should be irrelevant.

[StefanAVFC]

Just now, Rugeley Villa said:

Where people from another country have more rights than you. Well it will probably look terrible, some of it already does.

Examples of where/when/how this happened please

[DCJonah]

1 minute ago, Rugeley Villa said:

Where people from another country have more rights than you. Well it will probably look terrible, some of it already does.

Well shouldn't equal rights be the goal? Rather than me before you because I was born here?

[Keyblade]

Could mean even Muslim student associations can be designated a terror affiliate for being linked ot CAIR. This is an absolute shitshow. I'm genuinely worried at how fast things are moving along. Is it even hyperbole anymore to say Muslims are going to become the new Jews?

[Rugeley Villa]

9 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

oh dear

The thought process that a Christian Syrian is any more of 'your own' than a Muslim Syrian is sickening tbh.

still need some good Christian values that America should go back to please RV

Or to even prioritise Muslim refugees over Christians? 

[Rugeley Villa]

8 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Well shouldn't equal rights be the goal? Rather than me before you because I was born here?

That would be a great thing if the whole world followed suit. 

[OutByEaster?]

i think there's a degree to which the specifics of protest are becoming difficult to define - people (I think) are feeling that things are getting further away from them, that the gap between what people want and what politics does for economy instead is growing - I think this leaves them upset. I think then you have a media and a savvy group of people that are able to put sufficient influence into Democracy that it leaves a huge chunk of the population feeling it's failing them. I think you also have some very influential, very rich people in the US and elsewhere who are able to push the line of "small government good, big government bad" and further erode people's belief in political democracy as a means of change.

Take away the choices that are available, make those that still are appear to be something more than is actually on offer and you weaken peoples belief in politics as a means of influence - you take away the idea that the collective can change the world. Add in Donald and his omni-cluster-unpleasantness and you divide what there is into so many subsets that they lose their voice, that they end up as one big massive blob of people who don't seem to be able to focus on that one thing that they're unhappy about. I think we're at a point where our democratic institutions are now so in thrall to our economic institutions that they're almost an absurd parody of the democratic principle and without being able to quite put a handle on it, I think we know it.

However, I believe there's an innate knowledge that a collective spirit can change things, it's completely undisciplined, largely uninformed, unfocused and without a concrete aim, but at some level I think people know they're being lied to and want to do something about it. Protest against bad things is worthwhile, even just as a reminder to the people that they don't necessarily agree with the things that they were encouraged to vote for and they know that something is wrong.

I think the notion that we should discourage protest because it's unfocused is one of the main purposes of Trumps style - it becomes harder every day for people to remain focussed on what's important, because there's just so much to be angry about - but I don't think that should mean people shouldn't try.

 

 

 

[snowychap]

8 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

We are throwing too much into the melting pot. I'm not on about going back to Christian extremism but America is a Christian country, well according to Obama it weren't but a return to some degree of nationalism won't do it any harm. After all American folk are first priority right. Totally agree with trumps cut back on immigration from Muslim countries as that is a problem that needs sorting, although Saudi Arabia is not on the list. Why wasn't Christian refugees a priority for Obama? Look after your own then worry about other people. carrying  on with liberal views and you will lose your country. 

What on earth does 'throwing too much in to the melting pot' mean?

Why is immigration from Muslim countries a problem that needs need sorting? At least simply in terms of 'reducing numbers'? That sounds less as though it's something about hardening up vetting procedures for security and more like basing immigration on which religion you follow (with the implication that being muslim is somehow anathema to being American).

I'm glad that you have confirmed that your posts come from the position of not holding or being in favour of liberal views. I thoroughly agree that the kind of 'values' that are being espoused in your posts and by the Trump administration appear obviously illiberal.

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said:

... a change is needed and a more conservative/republican way of thinking will make America a better country in the long run. It does seem he's trying to take America back a few decades instead of progressively forward but imo that's not a bad thing. 

 

1 hour ago, Rugeley Villa said:

Caring for its own people first and not immigrants is a great way to start. Look at America in the 50s great powerful country. .... trump might not be the right man to steady America but some of his values are. 

 

55 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

What was so bad about it?

 

38 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

This is the point I'm getting at. Without going all KKK I think America needs to rediscover it's Christian values. A lot went wrong in the 50s but we have moved forward regarding discrimination of black people. But you can go too far forward in which I think we are heading, or maybe not so now.

The glorious 1950's when mixed race marriage was still illegal?

Or the glorious 1950's when blacks weren't allowed to eat in the same restaurants or piss in the same toilets as white folk?

That's not KKK stuff. that's law.

I'm not picking on you, it's not post on poster, but that sort of thinking where everything would be nicer if it all went back to being a bit like it was, that's turning out to be a real desire for a lot of people. Usually people who had priviledge, or don't actually know what the past was like, or, or I don't know what. i can't get my head around it.

We've all got google. 

Properly pisses me off, people referencing the good old days.