Relegation

[Big_John_10]

**** all to do with Lerner, football does exist outside the premier league, with fans that celebrate goals and wins.

Accepting relegation is everything to do with pathetic support of the owner.

[Morpheus]

KEA has been ghastly.

Yeah CI he has been poor but according to some on here he hasn't been poor and it's the fault of those players around him.

[Mantis]

You twist everything Mantis especially when you drive yourself into a hole.

Not at all.

I talk about a lot of things in life but that doesn't mean that i like them.

You certainly seem to like Redknapp. Not that you're not allowed to, but could you please worship him somewhere else on the forum?

You asked me how i did i know Lambert's signings were affecting our current position. When players are playing in a team do they affect the result or not?

I asked you how you could make such a comparison.

So you agree with his buys but 'it's too early to properly judge.' Make your mind up man. Are they good signings or not?

I like the look of them but it's too early to judge them.

To my recollection O'Neill never had us in the bottom three even at the start of his tenure and neither did Mcleish yet you still criticized them but feel Lambert is still doing a good job by having us third from bottom.

I've never criticised O'Neill for being a bad manager, I've criticised him for doing an average job given the resources he had at his disposal.

You bring up McLeish but look where we finished that season. I know this may sound like an alien concept but how about waiting until the season is out until judging Lambert? We could very well finish the season on more points than we did last season despite never dropping into the bottom three last season but doing so this season.

I never said Lambert was doing a good job to have us in the bottom three either.

You comment on KEA which i have now quoted is self explanatory and 'Briny is right so i'm out.

Yes, I think KEA has been ok but the midfield as a whole has been poor.

[VillaForever1970]

Accepting relegation is everything to do with pathetic support of the owner.

Will Villa still exist if we get relegated, or will we just vanish?

Hopefully lose a load of so called 'fans' and left with actual fans who support the club whatever its doing or where it is, rather than banging on about how much other clubs are spending..

[Brumerican]

Accepting relegation is everything to do with pathetic support of the owner.

Accepting things that you can not change is far from pathetic, in fact it's the opposite . It is a sign of intelligence .

[rodigan]

Right… *draws a big breath*

The way i see it is this. Im guessing that when PL came in he was given a budget - somewhere in the say GBP20 million range. That was a finite amount that he could have spent as he wished.

At the same time he inherited a squad that looked something like this:

GK: Given, Marshall

FB: Hutton, Warnock, Lichaj

CB: Dunne, Collins, Clark

MF: Ireland, N’Zogbia, Albrighton, Delph, Bannan, Herd

STR: Agbonlahor, Bent, Weimann, Delfouneso

Plus a bunch of virtually uncapped kids, including Stevens, Baker and others.

Within this squad, Given, Hutton, Warnock, Dunne, Collins, Ireland, N’Zogbia, Agbonlahor, Bent and maybe Delph were on substantial wages above or near the GBP40k that the club believed was right for their first team players. Dunne was a long term injury, and players such as Hutton, Warnock and Collins only had one year left on their contract.

As well as a transfer kitty, PL was under instructions about wages – rumours of a salary cap of GBP40k were mentioned, but let’s presume it was say GBP50k.

To put transfer fees and wages into context (and these numbers are pulled from a rapid google search):

• Charlie Adam – transfer fee: GBP4m, wage: GBP50k
  
• Steven Fletcher – transfer fee GBP14m, wage: unknown
  
• Matt Jarvis – transfer fee: GBP7.5m (+ GBP2.5m add-ons), wage: GBP unknown
  
• Adam Johnson – transfer fee: GBP10m , wage: GBP50k
  
• Dimitar Berbatov - transfer fee: GBP5m , wage: GBP110k
  
• Junior Hoilett – transfer fee: GBP4m, wage: GBP50k
  
• Mohamed Diame – transfer fee: GBP0, wage: GBP50k
  

Regardless of whether these are players that we, as fans would have liked, the simple fact is that if we had bought these players or similar, we would have used up our kitty on 2 or 3 players, and have broken the wage cap on just about all of them.

To say that the squad that PL inherited was a barebones squad was in the best case a fair call, with little cover for injuries, much less poor form, in almost every position. In my view, what Paul Lambert did was to build a squad as best he could with the limited budget he had – 8 players for the GBP18 million or so that he net spent, and all of them (i) significantly below the wage cap and (ii) with likely substantial resale value.

What we now have is cover in each position:

GK: Guzan, Given

FB: Lowton, Bennett, Lichaj, Stevens, [Hutton]

CB: Vlaar, Clark, Dunne, Baker

MF: KEA, Delph, Bannan, Ireland, Westwood, N’Zogbia, Herd, Albrighton, Holman

STR: Bent, Benteke, Agbonlahor, Weimann, Bowery

From this position, he will be able to use the kitty that he gets in January to upgrade the quality of the squad, as opposed to having to fill holes that were simply empty before. he can bring in players at the top end of each position, and drop off those that are the weakest - the squad that he inherited simply didn't have that luxury.

From a wage perspective, he has Given, Hutton, Dunne, Ireland, N’Zogbia, Agbonlahor, and Bent earning more than the GBP40k threshold. Of these, Gabby and Ireland are playing regularly, N’Zogbia is a squad player, Given and Hutton are certainly not first choice, Dunne has yet to play and Bent is currently injured. Certain of these players (Hutton, Dunne, Given) may be up for sale in January.

Any strengthening of the squad in January will be done with the benefit of PL having seen for half a season, which of the 25 in the squad are going to make it at this level.

So, looking at the situation as a whole, I can see method to this – we now have a squad of at least 25 players that PL is comfortable to call on to play at any time, substantially all of whom have now seen playing time. He has a kitty, and I am sure has identified targets to buy and to get rid of. Introducing quality players into a squad that has spent some time working together has a far higher chance of success and is a luxury that PL didn’t really have at the start of the season.

I am certainly not of the opinion that the squad that we have now is good enough, and I think we have some very clear gaps that need desperately to be filled.

However, I am of the opinion that say three quality players will make a massive difference in our existing squad.

Am I concerned about our position? Absolutely.

Has the club, whether its PL or RL or anyone else, cut it too fine? Perhaps, but I sincerely hope not.

Was it necessary? Unfortunately yes.

Will we be ok? I think so, and if we’re not, I’ll worry about that at the end of the season. In the meantime, I’ll keep positive and hoping that we outperform as a team – there is nothing stopping them from doing that, so that’s what I’m hoping for…

UTV

[CI]

Yeah CI he has been poor but according to some on here he hasn't been poor and it's the fault of those players around him.

One of the worst Villa CM's I've seen alongside J2M. They make Gavin McCann look like Pirlo.

[blunther]

Having just looked at the fixtures list, I think we'll have a much better idea if we're going down or not very soon - on 11th December we will have just played Reading, QPR, Stoke and Norwich on the trot. 8 or 9 points needed from that I think.

[VillaCas]

...what Paul Lambert did was to build a squad as best he could with the limited budget he had – 8 players for the GBP18 million or so that he net spent, and all of them (i) significantly below the wage cap and (ii) with likely substantial resale value........From this position, he will be able to use the kitty that he gets in January to upgrade the quality of the squad, as opposed to having to fill holes that were simply empty before. he can bring in players at the top end of each position, and drop off those that are the weakest - the squad that he inherited simply didn't have that luxury.

Any strengthening of the squad in January will be done with the benefit of PL having seen for half a season, which of the 25 in the squad are going to make it at this level.

So, looking at the situation as a whole, I can see method to this – we now have a squad of at least 25 players that PL is comfortable to call on to play at any time, substantially all of whom have now seen playing time. He has a kitty, and I am sure has identified targets to buy and to get rid of. Introducing quality players into a squad that has spent some time working together has a far higher chance of success and is a luxury that PL didn’t really have at the start of the season.

I am certainly not of the opinion that the squad that we have now is good enough, and I think we have some very clear gaps that need desperately to be filled.

However, I am of the opinion that say three quality players will make a massive difference in our existing squad.

Was it necessary? Unfortunately yes.

Will we be ok? I think so, and if we’re not, I’ll worry about that at the end of the season. In the meantime, I’ll keep positive and hoping that we outperform as a team – there is nothing stopping them from doing that, so that’s what I’m hoping for…

Absolutely spot on - the bloke's had 12 games FFS - nothing worth anything is built overnight

We'll be much more comfortable by January, mid-table at season-end and better next year

[VillaCas]

One of the worst Villa CM's I've seen alongside J2M. They make Gavin McCann look like Pirlo.

Give over!! I don't think that KEA has looked any good yet but too be fair it's a difficult enough transition to the premier league, without coming into a team that is still finding it's form and formation. I think that if you put KEA in an established midfield he would look a completely different players

Thankfully PL understands football and will help him through - I hope and expect that he will become a valued part of the team. If not he was a not very costly bet that didnt quite come off. PL signed 8 players for less than Liverpool paid for Downing - they're not all going to end up world beaters

[quizme]

Norwich is in cup, though.

[CI]

Give over!! I don't think that KEA has looked any good yet but too be fair it's a difficult enough transition to the premier league, without coming into a team that is still finding it's form and formation. I think that if you put KEA in an established midfield he would look a completely different players

Thankfully PL understands football and will help him through - I hope and expect that he will become a valued part of the team. If not he was a not very costly bet that didnt quite come off. PL signed 8 players for less than Liverpool paid for Downing - they're not all going to end up world beaters

Just that he always looks to go sideways or backwards looks limited in the tackle and dwells too long on the ball. I've already seen much more potential in Westwood in his brief cameos.

[VillaCas]

Just that he always looks to go sideways or backwards looks limited in the tackle and dwells too long on the ball. I've already seen much more potential in Westwood in his brief cameos.

I think it's lack of confidence - understandable at the moment. I like Westwood more so far but the fair thing to do would be to give KEA a chance to shine in a team that's not struggling. If by season-end he's still no making the grade I might join you in saying "thanks but no thanks"

[briny_ear]

Right… *draws a big breath*

The way i see it is this. Im guessing that when PL came in he was given a budget - somewhere in the say GBP20 million range. That was a finite amount that he could have spent as he wished.

At the same time he inherited a squad that looked something like this:

GK: Given, Marshall

FB: Hutton, Warnock, Lichaj

CB: Dunne, Collins, Clark

MF: Ireland, N’Zogbia, Albrighton, Delph, Bannan, Herd

STR: Agbonlahor, Bent, Weimann, Delfouneso

Plus a bunch of virtually uncapped kids, including Stevens, Baker and others.

Within this squad, Given, Hutton, Warnock, Dunne, Collins, Ireland, N’Zogbia, Agbonlahor, Bent and maybe Delph were on substantial wages above or near the GBP40k that the club believed was right for their first team players. Dunne was a long term injury, and players such as Hutton, Warnock and Collins only had one year left on their contract.

As well as a transfer kitty, PL was under instructions about wages – rumours of a salary cap of GBP40k were mentioned, but let’s presume it was say GBP50k.

To put transfer fees and wages into context (and these numbers are pulled from a rapid google search):

• Charlie Adam – transfer fee: GBP4m, wage: GBP50k
  
• Steven Fletcher – transfer fee GBP14m, wage: unknown
  
• Matt Jarvis – transfer fee: GBP7.5m (+ GBP2.5m add-ons), wage: GBP unknown
  
• Adam Johnson – transfer fee: GBP10m , wage: GBP50k
  
• Dimitar Berbatov - transfer fee: GBP5m , wage: GBP110k
  
• Junior Hoilett – transfer fee: GBP4m, wage: GBP50k
  
• Mohamed Diame – transfer fee: GBP0, wage: GBP50k
  

Regardless of whether these are players that we, as fans would have liked, the simple fact is that if we had bought these players or similar, we would have used up our kitty on 2 or 3 players, and have broken the wage cap on just about all of them.

To say that the squad that PL inherited was a barebones squad was in the best case a fair call, with little cover for injuries, much less poor form, in almost every position. In my view, what Paul Lambert did was to build a squad as best he could with the limited budget he had – 8 players for the GBP18 million or so that he net spent, and all of them (i) significantly below the wage cap and (ii) with likely substantial resale value.

What we now have is cover in each position:

GK: Guzan, Given

FB: Lowton, Bennett, Lichaj, Stevens, [Hutton]

CB: Vlaar, Clark, Dunne, Baker

MF: KEA, Delph, Bannan, Ireland, Westwood, N’Zogbia, Herd, Albrighton, Holman

STR: Bent, Benteke, Agbonlahor, Weimann, Bowery

From this position, he will be able to use the kitty that he gets in January to upgrade the quality of the squad, as opposed to having to fill holes that were simply empty before. he can bring in players at the top end of each position, and drop off those that are the weakest - the squad that he inherited simply didn't have that luxury.

From a wage perspective, he has Given, Hutton, Dunne, Ireland, N’Zogbia, Agbonlahor, and Bent earning more than the GBP40k threshold. Of these, Gabby and Ireland are playing regularly, N’Zogbia is a squad player, Given and Hutton are certainly not first choice, Dunne has yet to play and Bent is currently injured. Certain of these players (Hutton, Dunne, Given) may be up for sale in January.

Any strengthening of the squad in January will be done with the benefit of PL having seen for half a season, which of the 25 in the squad are going to make it at this level.

So, looking at the situation as a whole, I can see method to this – we now have a squad of at least 25 players that PL is comfortable to call on to play at any time, substantially all of whom have now seen playing time. He has a kitty, and I am sure has identified targets to buy and to get rid of. Introducing quality players into a squad that has spent some time working together has a far higher chance of success and is a luxury that PL didn’t really have at the start of the season.

I am certainly not of the opinion that the squad that we have now is good enough, and I think we have some very clear gaps that need desperately to be filled.

However, I am of the opinion that say three quality players will make a massive difference in our existing squad.

Am I concerned about our position? Absolutely.

Has the club, whether its PL or RL or anyone else, cut it too fine? Perhaps, but I sincerely hope not.

Was it necessary? Unfortunately yes.

Will we be ok? I think so, and if we’re not, I’ll worry about that at the end of the season. In the meantime, I’ll keep positive and hoping that we outperform as a team – there is nothing stopping them from doing that, so that’s what I’m hoping for…

UTV

As you say up front, you're guessing. There is little point in this conversation going round and round until we see how much Lerner is actually prepared to spend in January, who Lambert would decide to buy with the money, and whether the January window is really the best place to find cheap players who are better quality than the current squad, which is what I take you to be guessing is the strategy.

Also, we shall see if there is a sell-to-buy policy in place, i.e. is it essential for Lambert to sell apparently unwanted players like Dunne, Given, Makoun, Hutton, N'Zogbia (Bent?) etc., before he can bring in new blood? We can't force the players to go nor force other clubs to buy them.

[Morpheus]

Thankfully PL understands football and will help him through - I hope and expect that he will become a valued part of the team. If not he was a not very costly bet that didnt quite come off. PL signed 8 players for less than Liverpool paid for Downing - they're not all going to end up world beaters

Pretty much the approach that Redknapp has been slated on here for and i don't think anyone expects every signing to be 'world beaters.' Decent Premiership quality would be nice though.

[VillaCas]

Pretty much the approach that Redknapp has been slated on here for and i don't think anyone expects every signing to be 'world beaters.' Decent Premiership quality would be nice though.

When you buy 8 players for £18m they aren't all going to work out. Downing cost Liverpool £20m and can't make the first team so throwing money at things isn't always the answer.

I'll give both KEA and PL some time to make their mark - I'm not going to judge after only a dozen games

PS why the constant mentions of Redknapp by everyone on here??? I could care less what Redknapp thinks or does!!

[romavillan]

As you say up front, you're guessing. There is little point in this conversation going round and round until we see how much Lerner is actually prepared to spend in January, who Lambert would decide to buy with the money, and whether the January window is really the best place to find cheap players who are better quality than the current squad, which is what I take you to be guessing is the strategy.

Also, we shall see if there is a sell-to-buy policy in place, i.e. is it essential for Lambert to sell apparently unwanted players like Dunne, Given, Makoun, Hutton, N'Zogbia (Bent?) etc., before he can bring in new blood? We can't force the players to go nor force other clubs to buy them.

well, pretty educated guesses i'd say he's more or less accurate with the figures and the fact that PL got 8 players isn't debatable. in so doing he covered all positions and got competition for places all across the squad.

buying from the uk isn't good value at any time of year but january especially, lets see what henke can come up with, i wouldn't be surprised to see 3 or 4 new faces come in from europe to help us out without breaking the bank.

pretty obvious that he's desperate to ship out hutton, i'd guess getting enything for the players with only months left on their contracts is a bonus. looks like zog isn't going to work out here and he has a fair bit of contract to go so shoudl be decent money for him. same goes for bent (even though i'd prefer to see him stay to be honest). if bent and zog do go and it is sell to buy then PL will be able to get 3 or 4 good players from europe with the money from just those 2. i think RL will make funds available and tell PL he can use money from sales to reinvest, so it'll be a bit of a mix i'd think.

either way jan will see some new faces and the continuing work on PL's long term project to turn the creaky villa ship around and start getting up the league.

[AvfcRigo82]

When you buy 8 players for £18m they aren't all going to work out. Downing cost Liverpool £20m and can't make the first team so throwing money at things isn't always the answer.

I'll give both KEA and PL some time to make their mark - I'm not going to judge after only a dozen games

PS why the constant mentions of Redknapp by everyone on here??? I could care less what Redknapp thinks or does!!

Here here. You will learn to switch off from the wind up mupp.. I mean merchants that continuously wank over Redknapp and regain a constant hard on at the thought of us being relegated.

The same pack only a week ago were so focused on the whole 'If benteke gets injured were ****' saga.

Pretty funny how that has all of a sudden died down!

Pathetic Morons.

.

[Morpheus]

I asked you how you could make such a comparison.

How do you know Lambert's buys have made our league position worse?

Again, no Mantis. The point of our debate was your statement 'how do you know Lambert's buys have made our league position worse' as quoted above. I have continually replied by stating that Lambert's purchases are currently in the team that has now seen us drop into the bottom three. Not exactly an invalid point and due to you not being able to answer my question directly you have twisted the point of debate to 'i asked you how you could make such a comparison' which i have also quoted above.

I would therefore suggest in future that you take stock of what you have actually posted than constantly changing your point to suit your debate. It is embarrassing.

[MaxVillan]

Morpheus, when did you last attend Villa park?

Bluenose in disguise.