legov Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Lets be honest though, throughout history religion has caused far more problems that its solved. If people didn't feel the need to fight with others over their beliefs then there wouldn't really be much of a problem with religion, or any other belief for that matter. Sure. But what if my religious beliefs compel me to fight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted July 23, 2013 Author VT Supporter Share Posted July 23, 2013 At the risk of repeating myself (like that's ever bothered me )... Religion may not actually cause many wars, but time and again, it has been a convenient excuse for starting them. Tribal leader/king/emperor/el presidente/big cheese: "Hmmmm, this being a tribal leader/king/emperor/el presidente/big cheese is really fun, but I'm getting a bit bored. I really fancy grabbing some more land/gold/water/oil/virgins. How can I get my underlings to go and get them for me? Sure, I could just order them, after all, they're all shit scared of me, but it would be better if they were dead keen on the idea... "I know! Oi, pope/bishop/high priest/mullah/grand wazoo! Could you get the unwashed to go and get themselves slaughtered en masse for me? I'll make it worth your while". Pope/bishop/high priest/mullah/grand wazoo: "Sure boss, no problem. I'll insist that Yahweh/Allah/Thor/Isis/Jupiter/Invisible Pink Unicorn calls them to slaughter the infidels, and that they will be rewarded by going to heaven, but if they refuse they'll roast in hell for all eternity" Tribal leader/king/emperor/el presidente/big cheese: "You reckon they'll buy that?" Pope/bishop/high priest/mullah/grand wazoo: "No problem chief, it works every time". Tribal leader/king/emperor/el presidente/big cheese: "Excellent! Fancy a pint of creme de menthe before we get started?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Lets be honest though, throughout history religion has caused far more problems that its solved. If people didn't feel the need to fight with others over their beliefs then there wouldn't really be much of a problem with religion, or any other belief for that matter. Sure. But what if my religious beliefs compel me to fight? Then you need to take a long hard look at yourself if you're willing to fight over them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Good idea. Fancy popping over the the middle east and telling them to have a long hard look at themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Good idea. Fancy popping over the the middle east and telling them to have a long hard look at themselves? I'm not wrong though am I? All those people out there who use violence in the name of religion are messed up in the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Good idea. Fancy popping over the the middle east and telling them to have a long hard look at themselves? I'm not wrong though am I? All those people out there who use violence in the name of religion are messed up in the head. Yes and the absurd teachings of religion are enough to make you messed up in the head. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Good idea. Fancy popping over the the middle east and telling them to have a long hard look at themselves? I'm not wrong though am I? All those people out there who use violence in the name of religion are messed up in the head. Yes and the absurd teachings of religion are enough to make you messed up in the head. Only if there's something wrong with you in the beginning. Funny how there are plenty of people in this country (the vast majority even) who can believe in a religion without going round killing others who disagree with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Only if there's something wrong with you in the beginning. Funny how there are plenty of people in this country (the vast majority even) who can believe in a religion without going round killing others who disagree with them. Yes because there is different levels of brainwashing involved. A completely innocent mind can be moulded to carry out the worst atrocities in the name of religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Only if there's something wrong with you in the beginning. Funny how there are plenty of people in this country (the vast majority even) who can believe in a religion without going round killing others who disagree with them. Yes because there is different levels of brainwashing involved. A completely innocent mind can be moulded to carry out the worst atrocities in the name of religion. Or political belief, for that matter. The problem here is not with the belief itself but the manipulators and the manipulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Only if there's something wrong with you in the beginning. Funny how there are plenty of people in this country (the vast majority even) who can believe in a religion without going round killing others who disagree with them. Yes because there is different levels of brainwashing involved. A completely innocent mind can be moulded to carry out the worst atrocities in the name of religion. Or political belief, for that matter. The problem here is not with the belief itself but the manipulators and the manipulated. A political belief is not enough to the rouse the masses though. How do you think governments in places such as Saudi Arabia enforce their political system and control measures. With religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 A political belief is not enough to the rouse the masses though. How do you think governments in places such as Saudi Arabia enforce their political system and control measures. With religion. History tells us political belief can often be enough to rouse the masses. Arguably more people were killed in political conflicts in the last century than religious conflicts. Through oppression largely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I think religion and politics are quite intertwined. I wouldn't have said Stalinism, Maoism or Nazism were overtly religious in the usual traditional sense, though they did pick up zealous converts. But between the three of them I think they rattled up quite a decent death total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 A political belief is not enough to the rouse the masses though. How do you think governments in places such as Saudi Arabia enforce their political system and control measures. With religion. History tells us political belief can often be enough to rouse the masses. Arguably more people were killed in political conflicts in the last century than religious conflicts. Through oppression largely. But often religion is the banner used to promote a political agenda, and that's not just in the middle east. Look at all the god guff Bush used to justify his oil raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Religion has a long history, not just last century, and not just the big religions, or big institutions. Belief has been the cause of all sorts of strange behaviour over the years. Sacrifice, for example. Where did that spring from? Oh hey, lets kill this chicken, lamb, man, woman, virgin, and that will bring good crops. Very strange. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I think religion and politics are quite intertwined. I wouldn't have said Stalinism, Maoism or Nazism were overtly religious in the usual traditional sense, though they did pick up zealous converts. But between the three of them I think they rattled up quite a decent death total. There's only one common denominator there. But often religion is the banner used to promote a political agenda, and that's not just in the middle east. Look at all the god guff Bush used to justify his oil raids. And often it isn't. Look at the Chinese civil war and the subsequent deaths under Mao, which enforced state atheism. I think it's definitely debatable whether or not Iraq was about oil but that's for another topic. Religion has a long history, not just last century, and not just the big religions, or big institutions. Belief has been the cause of all sorts of strange behaviour over the years. Sacrifice, for example. Where did that spring from? Oh hey, lets kill this chicken, lamb, man, woman, virgin, and that will bring good crops. Very strange. Well, people in general can be pretty strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post limpid Posted July 23, 2013 Administrator Popular Post Share Posted July 23, 2013 It's really important that we stop for spread of sectarian schools in the UK. The state should not be paying to divide up the children in separate enclaves for indoctrination. If we want a mixed, stable society, we can't start by separating children so that they only socialise with others of the same delusion. If people want to brainwash their kids, they can do it on their own time at their own expense. There is no place for religion in state funded schools. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Yes, I agree completely with the separation of church and state, although I think referring to it as "brainwashing" is going a bit far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted July 23, 2013 Administrator Share Posted July 23, 2013 Yes, I agree completely with the separation of church and state, although I think referring to it as "brainwashing" is going a bit far. I'm comparing it to teaching children to think rationally. Teaching them to think only with certain limits is brainwashing them. Use a different word if you like, but it'll mean the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted July 23, 2013 Moderator Share Posted July 23, 2013 Yes, I agree completely with the separation of church and state, although I think referring to it as "brainwashing" is going a bit far. I don't, it is exactly what it is. Children are taught to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Speaking from the perspective of someone who is religious, just for some balance, I try and imagine a world where everyone was atheist. Tbh I just don't see how there would be less violence or less war. That to me shows me that it is a human problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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