Would you report a family member for benefit fraud?

[wiggyrichard]

I ask some of the moral titans on here, would you shop your own son or daughter for lets say, benefit fraud, shop-lifting or tax evasion?

I don' think anyone would.

And if they did, there would have to be something seriously wrong with the father/child relationship for that to happen.

As BOF said, it would be done because of spite/revenge/dislike. I don't believe, assuming a typical father/child relationship (ie a good one), that anyone would snitch on their child for that purely out of a moral obligation.

Try and make them stop, of course. Talk them out of it, and maybe even threaten to tell the police. But actually turning them in? I struggle to believe anyone would.

Judging by some of the posts on this thread, i wouldnt be so sure mate. :|

From my perspective loyalty and 'blood' doesn't really come in to it at all.

I'd wager, and there's no way to prove it, that actually faced with the situation, they wouldn't do it.

And that doesn't mean I don't think they'd try and make that family member stop, or that i think they have no morals and let everyone do what they want.

And they can counter with the "I'd bring my kids up the right way so they wouldn't do that", that's fine. We'd all like that.

But assuming all that is true, actually faced with the situation, I don't think they'd do it.

Its all hot air mate. A simple question that i posed, that would take a simple 'yes or 'no' answer cant be answered.

Yes, we would all love our kids to turn out as decent human beings, and we all (at least i do) try and raise our kids to know right from wrong.

There is a huge difference in trying to speak to someone and tell them to stop what they are doing, and turning on them and handing them over to the system.

[GarethRDR]

[ender4]

But you still haven't answered the question.

I don't think anyone is debating that we'd al llike our kids to NOT do these things.

And if they did, you'd give them hell for it. You'd try and make them stop.

But that isn't the same as actually turning them over to the authorities.

sorry, to specifically answer the question.

IF my son/daughter was committing fraud or stealing regularly, i would have failed as a parent.

I would firstly try to remedy my failure, have a chat with them, and see if i could convince them to stop.

If that didn't work, i would try and emotionally blackmail them to stop.

If that didn't work, i would threaten to report them.

If that didn't work, i would get other members of the family to talk to them.

If after trying all avenues many times over many months, they still wouldn't stop, then i would report them for fraud/theft.

I would also try to make them give the extra money they claimed to charity.

Though the OP is about a extended family member, which is what we were talking about. Technically, there shouldn't be any difference though, but in reality there will be.

[wiggyrichard]

The moralists say some pretty extreme stuff. What are morals, but a man made set of rules anyway. Surely not more important than a loved one?

I don't believe anyone would shop their own child much like I don't believe they'd refuse greenlight torturing a 'terroist' to save their child.

We have had many a debate about this mate, and they always come out with the same titanic moral bullshit.

To many people trying to sound like they're the modal member of society.

Its all horseshit mate, people saying they would turn on a loved member of their family? Wouldnt torture someone to save their childs life? etc etc. Complete bullshit.

They obviously dont know what true love for someone is.

[wiggyrichard]

If after trying all avenues many times over many months, they still wouldn't stop, then i would report them for fraud/theft.

So if it meant your child going to prison for 'x' amount of years, you'd still turn them over to the authorities? :?

[hogso]

Judging by some of the posts on this thread, i wouldnt be so sure mate. :|

From my perspective loyalty and 'blood' doesn't really come in to it at all.

I'd wager, and there's no way to prove it, that actually faced with the situation, they wouldn't do it.

Yeh I see your point, but in regards to benefit fraud, and only benefit fraud, as I said, there's no harm in it at all, from my perspective. I know the system well enough that if I did shop a family member/friend and they ended up owing a shed load of money, I could tell them what to do/say so that they would pay off the bare minimum possible for life, if anything at all. Loadsa monaayyyy

To which you may respond, what would be the point in shopping someone if they werent going to pay it back anyway? Well, I would be safe in the knowledge that from then on they would be paid what they are due, which, shock horror, is quite an important issue for me. They wouldnt have a criminal record, they wouldnt have any CCJs or anything like that against their name, and they would be able to continue claiming benefits if they had to.

And what impact would this have with my relationship with that person? Well I wouldn't just do it without telling them, of course I would discuss it with them. All of my family members and friends know what my line of work is, and I have had very frank discussions with the few of them that claim/have claimed benefits, in regard to what they should or shouldnt be doing whilst claiming.

I think it's safe to say that if I didn't do what I do for a job, my view point and repsonse to this hypothetical situation would be quite different.

[mjmooney]

Some people don't like their families though. I could imagine the child of an abusive parent might turn them in for benefit fraud.

Not true in my case I hasten to add, but you never know.

My Springsteen quote upthread was very pertinent BTW, as that song ("Highway Patrolman") is specifically about the issue in this thread.

Here

[wiggyrichard]

Judging by some of the posts on this thread, i wouldnt be so sure mate. :|

From my perspective loyalty and 'blood' doesn't really come in to it at all.

I'd wager, and there's no way to prove it, that actually faced with the situation, they wouldn't do it.

Yeh I see your point, but in regards to benefit fraud, and only benefit fraud, as I said, there's no harm in it at all, from my perspective. I know the system well enough that if I did shop a family member/friend and they ended up owing a shed load of money, I could tell them what to do/say so that they would pay off the bare minimum possible for life, if anything at all. Loadsa monaayyyy

To which you may respond, what would be the point in shopping someone if they werent going to pay it back anyway? Well, I would be safe in the knowledge that from then on they would be paid what they are due, which, shock horror, is quite an important issue for me. They wouldnt have a criminal record, they wouldnt have any CCJs or anything like that against their name, and they would be able to continue claiming benefits if they had to.

And what impact would this have with my relationship with that person? Well I wouldn't just do it without telling them, of course I would discuss it with them. All of my family members and friends know what my line of work is, and I have had very frank discussions with the few of them that claim/have claimed benefits, in regard to what they should or shouldnt be doing whilst claiming.

I think it's safe to say that if I didn't do what I do for a job, my view point and repsonse to this hypothetical situation would be quite different.

So they would be happy for you to report them because its "your job"?

Oh because they wouldnt go to prison or get a CCJ that makes it ok to rat out your family?

Would you expect them to talk to you again? To trust you?

Because after that, if it was me, i wouldnt trust you to walk my dog!

Ive said it before in this thread. Who needs enemies in the world when your own family would turn you in!?

[ender4]

If after trying all avenues many times over many months, they still wouldn't stop, then i would report them for fraud/theft.

So if it meant your child going to prison for 'x' amount of years, you'd still turn them over to the authorities? :?

**** me, if my kids had killed someone or done something bad enough to go to prison for a number of years, i'd be driving down to the prison myself, throwing him in, and throwing away the key.

[wiggyrichard]

If after trying all avenues many times over many months, they still wouldn't stop, then i would report them for fraud/theft.

So if it meant your child going to prison for 'x' amount of years, you'd still turn them over to the authorities? :?

**** me, if my kids had killed someone or done something bad enough to go to prison for a number of years, i'd be driving down to the prison myself, throwing him in, and throwing away the key.

But were not talking about murder. I asked you if your son/daughter faced 3 years in prison for tax evasion or fraud or such like. Would you still hand them over to the authorities?

[ender4]

I don't believe anyone would shop their own child much like I don't believe they'd refuse greenlight torturing a 'terroist' to save their child.

Its all horseshit mate, people saying they would turn on a loved member of their family? Wouldnt torture someone to save their childs life? etc etc. Complete bullshit.

They obviously dont know what true love for someone is.

i have a serious question - do you know anyone claiming benefits illegally?

To save my child (or indeed any member of my family), i'd happily torture or kill. If someone raped my daughter, i would hunt them down, and torture them for a long long time, not kill them as that would be too easy.

If you look at other post i have done over the years, you will see i am consistent in my views on criminality. I believe in the death penalty, harsh prisons as opposed to holiday camps, long prison sentences, and abolition of European Human Rights legislation.

not quite sure what all this has got to do with reporting someone for stealing though :?

[snowychap]

Oh, don't misunderstand me on that. I'm fully aware that some 'right slanters' will be just as rabid in their denunciation of such things, in fact I would expect it. I'm not trying to make a left right thing out of it though.

Fair enough.

As for paying attention to the coalition crap, I haven't. Most of the last year I've been abroad and I've paid little attention. It is my intention to spend the next year doing more of the same.

Even fairer enough.

[coda]

There was a woman in London who recognised her daughter rioting last summer and handed her in to the police. She said it was the hardest decision she had ever made but was worried about the path her daughter was following.

[snowychap]

So, what is the maximum size screen TV permitted for the unemployed (or a benefit claimant) and does it need to be (or need not to be) LCD, LED or Plasma?

This thread needs clarity.

Black and white and no more than 14" it should where possible be one of the old ones that you have a dial on which to find channels rather than buttons.

Thank you, TV.

[ender4]

If after trying all avenues many times over many months, they still wouldn't stop, then i would report them for fraud/theft.

So if it meant your child going to prison for 'x' amount of years, you'd still turn them over to the authorities? :?

**** me, if my kids had killed someone or done something bad enough to go to prison for a number of years, i'd be driving down to the prison myself, throwing him in, and throwing away the key.

But were not talking about murder. I asked you if your son/daughter faced 3 years in prison for tax evasion or fraud or such like. Would you still hand them over to the authorities?

ok, i took the number of 'x' to be 6 years which is how many years on average you get for murder.

a 3 year sentence, that would be something more serious that GBH or rape. would you get 3 years for tax evasion or fraud? 99% of the time you wouldn't even get a prison sentence at all (unless you were in the public eye).

anyway, i digress, assuming you mean a criminal act that would actually get 3 years in a holiday camp, yes i would.

assuming you mean a tax evasion or fraud, which might get 7 days in a holiday camp if the judge was feeling particularly mean, yes i would.

[wiggyrichard]

I don't believe anyone would shop their own child much like I don't believe they'd refuse greenlight torturing a 'terroist' to save their child.

Its all horseshit mate, people saying they would turn on a loved member of their family? Wouldnt torture someone to save their childs life? etc etc. Complete bullshit.

They obviously dont know what true love for someone is.

i have a serious question - are you claiming benefits illegally yourself, because it starting to sound like you have a hidden agenda...

:?

Like im going to tell you!*

My 2 issues in this thread are...

1) People taking the moral high ground and making out they would always do things by the book for the good of society etc etc.

2) The fact that people would happily turn on the family, even their own son or daughter, then try and back it up with "because its the right thing to do" etc etc.

My gripe is nothing to do with benefit fraud, shoplifting etc. Its with the fact that people would grass on their own flesh and blood, and not bat an eyelid about it! I couldnt care less what people get away with or how they con the system, i know i earn my money honestly and a sleep well at night because of it.

*FWIW i have never claimed benefits in all my 29 years on this planet. Touch wood, i have always been in full-time employment working 50 hours a week for the same employer since the day i left school. My fiancee has also been in full-time work as a band 7 neonatal nurse since she left university. My son is 19 months old so i dont think he really comes into it.

My family mean everything to me and i wouldnt turn them in...NO MATTER WHAT!

[wiggyrichard]

If after trying all avenues many times over many months, they still wouldn't stop, then i would report them for fraud/theft.

So if it meant your child going to prison for 'x' amount of years, you'd still turn them over to the authorities? :?

**** me, if my kids had killed someone or done something bad enough to go to prison for a number of years, i'd be driving down to the prison myself, throwing him in, and throwing away the key.

But were not talking about murder. I asked you if your son/daughter faced 3 years in prison for tax evasion or fraud or such like. Would you still hand them over to the authorities?

ok, i took the number of 'x' to be 6 years which is how many years on average you get for murder.

a 3 year sentence, that would be something more serious that GBH or rape. would you get 3 years for tax evasion or fraud? 99% of the time you wouldn't even get a prison sentence at all (unless you were in the public eye).

anyway, i digress, assuming you mean a criminal act that would actually get 3 years in a holiday camp, yes i would.

assuming you mean a tax evasion or fraud, which might get 7 days in a holiday camp if the judge was feeling particularly mean, yes i would.

Do you have children ender?

[ender4]

My gripe is nothing to do with benefit fraud, shoplifting etc. Its with the fact that people would grass on their own flesh and blood, and not bat an eyelid about it! I couldnt care less what people get away with or how they con the system, i know i earn my money honestly and a sleep well at night because of it.

My family mean everything to me and i wouldnt turn them in...NO MATTER WHAT!

ok, i think we're going to have to agree to disagree, as we both have very opposing views.

My family mean everything to me, and i mean everything to my family (i hope!) yet i know that they would stop me doing wrong and i would stop them doing wrong, in whatever way they could be stopped. We don't look at it as grassing, we look at it as part of our duty to society, but also each other. By knowing the consequences, it means that nobody in the family would be likely to engage in criminal behaviour, as they know what would happen.

[ender4]

Do you have children ender?

i have a 2 year-old boy and a 3 month old baby.

and yes, i know what your going to say, i'll feel differently when they are 16 and out on the street committing petty crimes.

maybe i will, i don't know.

i can only answer for myself at this point in time, and from my parents viewpoint as i have grown up. i knew that one wrong step would be fatal. so i didn't take any of those wrong steps.

anyway, we're not going to change each others minds, so i'm going to bow out of the thread, stop hogging it, and let others comment instead

[colhint]

its a strange one isn't it. Nothing is really black and white. If it was a close member, I would strongly disapprove. If it was a distant family member over claiming a few quid then no. If it was a distant family member who was really taking the piss, like the poster who said about getting a new car on disability allowance every 3 years. Well I don't know what I would do in that situation, but it would really piss me off.

Another point on this though, In the scenario where a different member of the family reported them, and it all came out in a family do, who would you side with? The one one the benefit fraud or the one who reported it.

And lets not compare it to murder, what about burglary. A few TV's DVD's etc. What then. most burglars eventually shit on their own patch. Its difficult.

Like I said nothings ever black and white