Straight choice - Ellis or Lerner?

[blandy]

Selling Ashley Young and Stuart Downing and only replacing them with one (inferior) player is criminal. If Ellis had pulled a stunt like that he'd be hung drawn and quartered by now.

But he did that sort of thing ALL THE TIME!

He replaced the European champions with a load of dross that ended up getting relegated!

When Ellis sold our top players he reinvested the cash received for them. Lerner has pocketed it. Absolutely scandalous.

Absolutely wrong, more like, and on both counts.

Randy has been a net contributor to club funds, putting in millions of his own cash, and taking out one payment of 7 million a couple of years ago. Ellis one the other hand took millions out in wages and dividends, and never put a single penny in (other than one loan in the 60s, which he got back). The loan was a precondition of him joining the board from small heath, where he was at the time.

To be honest I've never demanded any owner put a penny of their own money in. If they do then great, but I don't think it's essential. What is important is how they run the club, their motivation, and their behaviour as it reflects upon the club.

Ellis' record, for me was lamentable for most of the time. Randy (ignoring the money for a moment) certainly started off well, the relationship between the board and the supporters was brilliant to start with. The Sheffield United/81-82 team celebration game, the pub, the scarves, the coaches, the communication, the improvements to the ground, the training ground and so on. Long overdue and massively welcome.

He also, in the earlier days had a really good set of experts involved, raising the profile of the club, the gates, the on the field results, the income and the commercial set up.

Some of that is ongoing, still, and his nous, for me is better than that of Ellis in most respects, if not all.

The negatives are now poor communications, a couple of bad managerial appointments, and the initial lax wage control, which has now been rectified, but painfully so. We underwent all those things under Ellis too, at various times. Communication wise we were fed a diet of bull under Ellis, from start to finish. Under randy it's been a mix of nothing, then something genuinely interesting, then nothing, then some waffle and ill-aimed formal stuff.

The point about 6th highest wages and finishing 6th is fair up to a degree, and its common across many leagues that the most money tends to lead to the highest placings. It's not cast iron, though.

Ultimately the balance between income and outgoings on players has to be right. Randy/Paul F is working much harder and more capably on income than Ellis ever did.

This is not undiluted praise for RL. IMO he's far better than Ellis was, even now, though I have concerns and reservations about a number of things going on.

But had they done better with managerial appointments I don't think there'd really be much of the debate going on, to be honest.

[avfc1982]

Selling Ashley Young and Stuart Downing and only replacing them with one (inferior) player is criminal. If Ellis had pulled a stunt like that he'd be hung drawn and quartered by now.

But he did that sort of thing ALL THE TIME!

He replaced the European champions with a load of dross that ended up getting relegated!

When Ellis sold our top players he reinvested the cash received for them. Lerner has pocketed it. Absolutely scandalous.

Absolutely wrong, more like, and on both counts.

Randy has been a net contributor to club funds, putting in millions of his own cash, and taking out one payment of 7 million a couple of years ago. Ellis one the other hand took millions out in wages and dividends, and never put a single penny in (other than one loan in the 60s, which he got back). The loan was a precondition of him joining the board from small heath, where he was at the time.

To be honest I've never demanded any owner put a penny of their own money in. If they do then great, but I don't think it's essential. What is important is how they run the club, their motivation, and their behaviour as it reflects upon the club.

Ellis' record, for me was lamentable for most of the time. Randy (ignoring the money for a moment) certainly started off well, the relationship between the board and the supporters was brilliant to start with. The Sheffield United/81-82 team celebration game, the pub, the scarves, the coaches, the communication, the improvements to the ground, the training ground and so on. Long overdue and massively welcome.

He also, in the earlier days had a really good set of experts involved, raising the profile of the club, the gates, the on the field results, the income and the commercial set up.

Some of that is ongoing, still, and his nous, for me is better than that of Ellis in most respects, if not all.

The negatives are now poor communications, a couple of bad managerial appointments, and the initial lax wage control, which has now been rectified, but painfully so. We underwent all those things under Ellis too, at various times. Communication wise we were fed a diet of bull under Ellis, from start to finish. Under randy it's been a mix of nothing, then something genuinely interesting, then nothing, then some waffle and ill-aimed formal stuff.

The point about 6th highest wages and finishing 6th is fair up to a degree, and its common across many leagues that the most money tends to lead to the highest placings. It's not cast iron, though.

Ultimately the balance between income and outgoings on players has to be right. Randy/Paul F is working much harder and more capably on income than Ellis ever did.

This is not undiluted praise for RL. IMO he's far better than Ellis was, even now, though I have concerns and reservations about a number of things going on.

But had they done better with managerial appointments I don't think there'd really be much of the debate going on, to be honest.

I've followed Villa since the '70s, so I know all about Ellis' pros and cons, but when he sold a top player like for instance Platt and Yorke he reinvested the money back into the team. Lerner sold assets like Downing and Yorke and put most of the cash received back into his wallet. I don't care how much Ellis took out in wages etc. The point I'm making stands. Lerner has asset stripped the squad in the last couple of years and we're suffering the consequences of it right now.

[Harry]

Selling Ashley Young and Stuart Downing and only replacing them with one (inferior) player is criminal. If Ellis had pulled a stunt like that he'd be hung drawn and quartered by now.

But he did that sort of thing ALL THE TIME!

He replaced the European champions with a load of dross that ended up getting relegated!

When Ellis sold our top players he reinvested the cash received for them. Lerner has pocketed it. Absolutely scandalous.

Absolutely wrong, more like, and on both counts.

Randy has been a net contributor to club funds, putting in millions of his own cash, and taking out one payment of 7 million a couple of years ago. Ellis one the other hand took millions out in wages and dividends, and never put a single penny in (other than one loan in the 60s, which he got back). The loan was a precondition of him joining the board from small heath, where he was at the time.

To be honest I've never demanded any owner put a penny of their own money in. If they do then great, but I don't think it's essential. What is important is how they run the club, their motivation, and their behaviour as it reflects upon the club.

Ellis' record, for me was lamentable for most of the time. Randy (ignoring the money for a moment) certainly started off well, the relationship between the board and the supporters was brilliant to start with. The Sheffield United/81-82 team celebration game, the pub, the scarves, the coaches, the communication, the improvements to the ground, the training ground and so on. Long overdue and massively welcome.

He also, in the earlier days had a really good set of experts involved, raising the profile of the club, the gates, the on the field results, the income and the commercial set up.

Some of that is ongoing, still, and his nous, for me is better than that of Ellis in most respects, if not all.

The negatives are now poor communications, a couple of bad managerial appointments, and the initial lax wage control, which has now been rectified, but painfully so. We underwent all those things under Ellis too, at various times. Communication wise we were fed a diet of bull under Ellis, from start to finish. Under randy it's been a mix of nothing, then something genuinely interesting, then nothing, then some waffle and ill-aimed formal stuff.

The point about 6th highest wages and finishing 6th is fair up to a degree, and its common across many leagues that the most money tends to lead to the highest placings. It's not cast iron, though.

Ultimately the balance between income and outgoings on players has to be right. Randy/Paul F is working much harder and more capably on income than Ellis ever did.

This is not undiluted praise for RL. IMO he's far better than Ellis was, even now, though I have concerns and reservations about a number of things going on.

But had they done better with managerial appointments I don't think there'd really be much of the debate going on, to be honest.

I've followed Villa since the '70s, so I know all about Ellis' pros and cons, but when he sold a top player like for instance Platt and Yorke he reinvested the money back into the team. Lerner sold assets like Downing and Yorke and put most of the cash received back into his wallet. I don't care how much Ellis took out in wages etc. The point I'm making stands. Lerner has asset stripped the squad in the last couple of years and we're suffering the consequences of it right now.

I would have a look at the accounts and then reconsider that statement if I were you.

Lerner has been pushing money into Villa ever since he bought us. Your gripe is the sale of say Downing was not matched by the purchase of player X whereas the reality is that money funded the large losses we were and probably still are making.

I can't say I'm happy with where the club is at the moment but what was going on with wages and transfer fees was simply unsustainable without much more recurring revenue. If you want to have a go a Lerner his failure to control MON is a far better argument.

[John_Lerwill]

I hear this piss poor control over wages thing.

You know what it wasn't the wages but the revenue that was / is the problem

For the seasons we finished 6th we have the 6th highest wages in the league, seems about the right level of performance. Issue was we were never a top six club in terms of being able to sustain that. It took an awful lot of money to get us to that position but Lerner could not sustain it.

Two things you would want Lerner to be better than Ellis about.

MONEY

and

NOUS

On the money he is now about the same, unable or unwilling to invest at a level to make us challengers

On Nous, Ellis had more, he still has actually

You have to listen to Richard, I believe. He wanted Ellis out (just like about everyone) but can now see that the grass is not necessarily greener on the other side.

In particular people all too often critcise Ellis for the breaking up of the European Cup side, but in fact a lot of that was enforced on him because of the financial state of things at that time and the high wages those players were on. The key matter was that Ellis did not have cash to inject - if he had then all would have been that much better back in the 80s.

To those who say that RL has injected a lot into Villa, they would be right ... but a lot of that investment has been into infrastructure, which has increased the real estate value no end. He bought the club for £62m but could doubtless sell it for £250m-£300m (or more) when the time arrives.

[Pelle]

I hear this piss poor control over wages thing.

You know what it wasn't the wages but the revenue that was / is the problem

For the seasons we finished 6th we have the 6th highest wages in the league, seems about the right level of performance. Issue was we were never a top six club in terms of being able to sustain that. It took an awful lot of money to get us to that position but Lerner could not sustain it.

Two things you would want Lerner to be better than Ellis about.

MONEY

and

NOUS

On the money he is now about the same, unable or unwilling to invest at a level to make us challengers

On Nous, Ellis had more, he still has actually

You have to listen to Richard, I believe. He wanted Ellis out (just like about everyone) but can now see that the grass is not necessarily greener on the other side.

In particular people all too often critcise Ellis for the breaking up of the European Cup side, but in fact a lot of that was enforced on him because of the financial state of things at that time and the high wages those players were on. The key matter was that Ellis did not have cash to inject - if he had then all would have been that much better back in the 80s.

To those who say that RL has injected a lot into Villa, they would be right ... but a lot of that investment has been into infrastructure, which has increased the real estate value no end. He bought the club for £62m but could doubtless sell it for £250m-£300m (or more) when the time arrives.

The grass is always greener on the other side of Ellis' fence. If Ellis had the money he still would've torn that team apart. That's the real issue. Add to that that he never cared about that era, even tried to hide it like it'd never happened says a lot.

And

whilst

Ok, those two clips doesn't show nearly the whole picture, but still.

[Morpheus]

With all due respect to 'John_Lerwill' i don't think anyone is going to give Lerner £250m-300m to buy our club anytime soon.

[AVFCforever1991]

Not in the sate we really should have got bought out about 2 years ago, when we were finishing 6th.. Now absolutely no chance.. But i hope im wrong.

[John_Lerwill]

The grass is always greener on the other side of Ellis' fence. If Ellis had the money he still would've torn that team apart. That's the real issue. Add to that that he never cared about that era, even tried to hide it like it'd never happened says a lot.

That last bit (Ellis' jealousy) may well be true - but the facts of how the EC team was dismantled need to be looked at much more closely.

One concern was the players' high wages (for the time) and another was that by 1983 several were getting to be over the hill. To add to that was the tragedy of Gary Shaw's injury and, indeed, Cowans missed a whole season because of a broken leg.

So Ellis did not "tear" any team apart. It just happened. What he didn't do was replace like with like (because of lack of funds), though the signing of Steve McMahon and Paul Rideout (both future stars) were not bad moves -others were not so good.

Whatever, if Doug had funds to play with things may well have been different. But with attendances having dipped to the 20k mark, times were bad. And that dip was mostly to do with the state of the economy in the West Midlands - even in the EC-winning season, gates were on their way down.

The history (the facts) of it all needs to be looked at without being blinkered by the emotion towards Ellis.

[John_Lerwill]

With all due respect to 'John_Lerwill' i don't think anyone is going to give Lerner £250m-300m to buy our club anytime soon.

I agree - but that's not the point.

The point is that value is there and in normal times will only rise in value. A good nest egg that be.

[Richard]

John please do not make the mistake of thinking because I have voted Ellis or because I have said Lerner out that I want Ellis back

I want neither of them anywhere near owning this club. But in a comparison between the two I think Lerner is worse. A lot worse actually as under Lerner we had the expectation / hope which is has destroyed and proven to be all gloss and no substance. Under Ellis, you knew we would never compete!

[John_Lerwill]

John please do not make the mistake of thinking because I have voted Ellis or because I have said Lerner out that I want Ellis back

I want neither of them anywhere near owning this club. But in a comparison between the two I think Lerner is worse. A lot worse actually as under Lerner we had the expectation / hope which is has destroyed and proven to be all gloss and no substance. Under Ellis, you knew we would never compete!

Whoa, Richard ... :-)

I didn't suggest that you did want Doug back. All I said was that you have come to see that the other side of the fence is not necessarily greener.

I wouldn't for a minute think you'd want Doug back - and I'd agree with that as I agree with you that Mr. Lerner does not fit our (yours and mine at the every least) expectations.

[bickster]

Cowans missed a whole season because of a broken leg.

Who we sold to Bari for a pitiful £250,000, which even in those days was a steal. He was an England International before and after that deal, it was a criminally low fee.

[John_Lerwill]

Yes.

Nobody said that Doug was marvellous, did they?

[PauloBarnesi]

Doug was marvellous

Look someone said he was marvellous

[DelboyVilla]

Has to be Ellis he basically shaped not only Villa but the whole of the modern football world!!!! That's what he told me anyway!!!

[Richard]

Cowans missed a whole season because of a broken leg.

Who we sold to Bari for a pitiful £250,000, which even in those days was a steal. He was an England International before and after that deal, it was a criminally low fee.

Had to check this as it didn't seem right to me, I remembered a higher (yet still too small) amount

I also recalled he went with Paul Rideout .

According to This site it was £500,000 that he went for and Paul Rideout went for 400,000.

We bought him back 3 years later for 250,000, then sold him to Rovers 3 years after that for 200,000

For such a good player the transfer fees involved throughout his career did not reflect this

[drat01]

Unequivocally Lerner

Absolutely.

Graham Turner & Billy McNeill

Getting thrashed 5 and 6 goals by the likes of Notts County, (post their best) Nott'm Forest, as well as Arsenal - just shoeing after shoeing. look here for the relegation season results - and it was much worse than the crap we're being served up with at the moment. Relegation season followed another rubbish season and it was inevitable we'd go.

Of course under 25 years of Ellis "leadership" we did win 2 league cups, so it wasn't all bad, and we had a short periods of being quite good under BFR, Brian Little, and JG.

Ellis has a record of relegation, lack of respect for the ground, the fans, and the traditions of the club a record of enriching himself from the Club.

Ellis also broke up a good side, sold our best players and led us into a bad financial situation.

Whatever the problems with Randy's time, and there are several, Ellis did worse. To pick Ellis as preferable is (to me) utterly staggering for anyone old enough to remember the 80s in particular. Short memories and all that.

1 million percent this

Amazing that anyone other than those with an agenda and a crusade to follow can actually think that times under Ellis were in some way better. Considering the time we spent in the premiership and the wasted opportunities under his leadership (and lack of any investment in the infrastructure at the club), Ellis's time is something that will take some beating for its failure

[John_Lerwill]

Cowans missed a whole season because of a broken leg.

Who we sold to Bari for a pitiful £250,000, which even in those days was a steal. He was an England International before and after that deal, it was a criminally low fee.

Had to check this as it didn't seem right to me, I remembered a higher (yet still too small) amount

I also recalled he went with Paul Rideout .

According to This site it was £500,000 that he went for and Paul Rideout went for 400,000.

We bought him back 3 years later for 250,000, then sold him to Rovers 3 years after that for 200,000

For such a good player the transfer fees involved throughout his career did not reflect this

Well researched, Richard. I was lazy to check on it as I didn't think it too relevant.

However, now you've mentioned it, £500,000 in those days was still quite a lot of money - maybe £5m+ in to-day's cash?

We'd like to think that Sid was worth a lot more, I know.

[John_Lerwill]

Amazing that anyone other than those with an agenda and a crusade to follow can actually think that times under Ellis were in some way better. Considering the time we spent in the premiership and the wasted opportunities under his leadership (and lack of any investment in the infrastructure at the club), Ellis's time is something that will take some beating for its failure

Well, it's for me a matter of opinion and nothing else. The major supporters of the opinion of Doug being better don't seem to me to be people who have any "crusade" or other cause.

If Doug had supplied money I don't think many would be thinking so badly about him. No way do I think his time was a failure ... a disappointment, yes.

[Richard]

Not sur it was a lot considering that the £1M had been broken 6 years previously and just three years after we sold Sid Spurs were selling Waddle for 4.25M.

As a matter of fact they bought Waddle for 590K in the year we sold Cowans for 500K