The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Jim in Marketing.

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One of the most worrying developments in all this is the number of acronyms in use and that they seem to change almost daily (when did ISIS decide to drop the second IS and who did their rebranding?).

 

29th June when al-Baghdadi declared the new Caliphate.

[snowychap]

One of the most worrying developments in all this is the number of acronyms in use and that they seem to change almost daily (when did ISIS decide to drop the second IS and who did their rebranding?).

29th June when al-Baghdadi declared the new Caliphate.

Ah, right.

It took a while for the message to disseminate, then. Weren't people calling them ISIS last week?

Anyway, IS sounds wrong - much too 'faddy'. It'll be like Royal Mail and Consignia.

[Rodders]

One of the most worrying developments in all this is the number of acronyms in use and that they seem to change almost daily (when did ISIS decide to drop the second IS and who did their rebranding?).

 

Probably Mallory Archer, trying to avoid cross-over confusion. 

[TrentVilla]

I'll get to my long reply in a couple of hours. Just wanted to inform you that at the moment the 72 hours ceasefire ended, Hamas launched rockets to Israel.

So... Now what? Do you think that restarting this thing is for the best in term of the common folk in Gaza? And what should Israel do? Sit in its hand?

 

Well...

 

If rockets are being fired again then I would suggest what you have spent the last few weeks doing hasn't really worked, no great shock there. So I tell you what you shouldn't do, you shouldn't needlessly slaughter a couple of thousand civilians and waste the lives of almost a hundred of your country men when you admit yourself it is a pointless enterprise.

 

Laying waste to half of Gaza won't bring peace the sooner Israel accepts that the better in my book. Not only will it stop condemnation from some in the West but if you are right about Hammas aims then surely not giving them the oxygen of publicity through a heavy handed response is the answer or at least part of one.

 

Iron Dome as I understand it is a extremely reliable protection against most of the rockets and while I accept no Israeli should have to live in fear of the rockets neither should the residents of Gaza be forced to go hungry in a giant prison.

 

So no, Israel shouldn't sit on its hands it already has pretty sound protection against the rockets. So how about Israel acts like the responsible, civilised nation it purports to be and tries to find a better solution starting with limiting the blockage.

 

The UK didn't resolve the situation in Ireland by killing a couple of thousand Irish citizens every time the IRA hit us with a bomb and neither did we turn the country into a refugee camp.

[DanishVillan]

America is coming to help

 

 

... what could possibly go wrong

Well, it is almost like giving Putin a legit reason in Ukraine. To protect Russian personel.

[TrentVilla]

One of the most worrying developments in all this is the number of acronyms in use and that they seem to change almost daily (when did ISIS decide to drop the second IS and who did their rebranding?).

 

I put it down to lazy US news presenters although it could well be the work of The Sun who are on a roll after the 'closure' of the News of the World and the launch of The Sun on Sunday or whatever its called.

[tonyh29]

 

I'll get to my long reply in a couple of hours. Just wanted to inform you that at the moment the 72 hours ceasefire ended, Hamas launched rockets to Israel.

So... Now what? Do you think that restarting this thing is for the best in term of the common folk in Gaza? And what should Israel do? Sit in its hand?

 

Well...

 

If rockets are being fired again then I would suggest what you have spent the last few weeks doing hasn't really worked, no great shock there. So I tell you what you shouldn't do, you shouldn't needlessly slaughter a couple of thousand civilians and waste the lives of almost a hundred of your country men when you admit yourself it is a pointless enterprise.

 

Laying waste to half of Gaza won't bring peace the sooner Israel accepts that the better in my book. Not only will it stop condemnation from some in the West but if you are right about Hammas aims then surely not giving them the oxygen of publicity through a heavy handed response is the answer or at least part of one.

 

Iron Dome as I understand it is a extremely reliable protection against most of the rockets and while I accept no Israeli should have to live in fear of the rockets neither should the residents of Gaza be forced to go hungry in a giant prison.

 

So no, Israel shouldn't sit on its hands it already has pretty sound protection against the rockets. So how about Israel acts like the responsible, civilised nation it purports to be and tries to find a better solution starting with limiting the blockage.

 

The UK didn't resolve the situation in Ireland by killing a couple of thousand Irish citizens every time the IRA hit us with a bomb and neither did we turn the country into a refugee camp.

 

true  .... but for unleashing Clannad and The Corrs on us I think we should have

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

It'll take more than air strikes to stop Isis.

[Glarmorgan]

 

I'll get to my long reply in a couple of hours. Just wanted to inform you that at the moment the 72 hours ceasefire ended, Hamas launched rockets to Israel.

So... Now what? Do you think that restarting this thing is for the best in term of the common folk in Gaza? And what should Israel do? Sit in its hand?

 

Well...

 

If rockets are being fired again then I would suggest what you have spent the last few weeks doing hasn't really worked, no great shock there. So I tell you what you shouldn't do, you shouldn't needlessly slaughter a couple of thousand civilians and waste the lives of almost a hundred of your country men when you admit yourself it is a pointless enterprise.

 

Laying waste to half of Gaza won't bring peace the sooner Israel accepts that the better in my book. Not only will it stop condemnation from some in the West but if you are right about Hammas aims then surely not giving them the oxygen of publicity through a heavy handed response is the answer or at least part of one.

 

Iron Dome as I understand it is a extremely reliable protection against most of the rockets and while I accept no Israeli should have to live in fear of the rockets neither should the residents of Gaza be forced to go hungry in a giant prison.

 

So no, Israel shouldn't sit on its hands it already has pretty sound protection against the rockets. So how about Israel acts like the responsible, civilised nation it purports to be and tries to find a better solution starting with limiting the blockage.

 

The UK didn't resolve the situation in Ireland by killing a couple of thousand Irish citizens every time the IRA hit us with a bomb and neither did we turn the country into a refugee camp.

 

 

The Iron Dome is effective against the rockets. It is not effective against the mortars, which are dropping on the head of the towns near by. Also - the Iron Dome is not a 100% solution, so you still need to get to the shelter as soon as a rocket it launched, regardless of Iron Dome. This means people can't leave their houses, as they have 15-90 seconds to get to the shelter. True - they don't get killed, but that's no way to live a life.

 

Easing the blockade is a meaningless saying. I mean - what do you expect Israel to do? Open the border to Gaza? I say over and over again, Hamas controls Gaza. Hamas is an entity calling for the extermination of Israel. Israel cannot act as if Hamas does not exist. Food and medical supplies were sent to Gaza on daily basis (!!) even before this operation took place. Dozens of truck each and every day. The cement Israel sent was used to build the tunnels, instead of helping the common folk to build their houses. Israel apprehended a fully loaded ship with long range missiles - so allowing free naval access is also a problem (you can thank Iran for that).  Israel cannot allow Gazans to come and work here, the same as it does not allow Syrians or Lebanese citizens to do so - these are countries we are at a state of war with.

 

As long as Hamas is in control - the only way to lift the blockade is for Hamas to accept the Quartet Principles - accepting the right of Israel to exist. While they refuse to do so, the blockade can be lifted only from the Egyptian side, through the shared border of Egypt and Gaza. Unfortunately, this won't take place as Egypt sees Hamas as a destabilizing factor who actively helped terrorists group within the Sinai peninsula to fight Egyptian army and police. 

 

And in regard to the "slaughter" - I guess if Hamas was to leave the populated areas and fight the IDF in the open will prevent any civilian casualties. Still, Hamas won't have this. For some strange reason - they prefer to allow the death toll to rise, as long as the leaders are well hidden in the bunker underneath Shifa hospital.

[omariqy]

Gaza is one of the most densley populated areas in the world.  What open areas are you referring to?

[TrentVilla]

Gaza is one of the most densley populated areas in the world.  What open areas are you referring to?

 

The beach, that is safe right?

[chrisp65]

I'll get to my long reply in a couple of hours. Just wanted to inform you that at the moment the 72 hours ceasefire ended, Hamas launched rockets to Israel.

So... Now what? Do you think that restarting this thing is for the best in term of the common folk in Gaza? And what should Israel do? Sit in its hand?

As I told you - you seek western world logic when none exists. We did the same some years back, thinking we understand the way some of our neighbors think. Well, we found out that we don't. Hamas knows his claim will be better heard when the casualty rate is on the rise. So that's where they're heading to.

 

Well jee, it's a tough one.

 

If weeks of bombing and turning streets to rubble hasn't worked, if shelling schools and hospitals hasn't worked, if killing children hasn't worked, I dunno.

Maybe just do that again and see if it works next time?

[TrentVilla]

The Iron Dome is effective against the rockets. It is not effective against the mortars, which are dropping on the head of the towns near by. Also - the Iron Dome is not a 100% solution, so you still need to get to the shelter as soon as a rocket it launched, regardless of Iron Dome. This means people can't leave their houses, as they have 15-90 seconds to get to the shelter. True - they don't get killed, but that's no way to live a life.

 

Easing the blockade is a meaningless saying. I mean - what do you expect Israel to do? Open the border to Gaza? I say over and over again, Hamas controls Gaza. Hamas is an entity calling for the extermination of Israel. Israel cannot act as if Hamas does not exist. Food and medical supplies were sent to Gaza on daily basis (!!) even before this operation took place. Dozens of truck each and every day. The cement Israel sent was used to build the tunnels, instead of helping the common folk to build their houses. Israel apprehended a fully loaded ship with long range missiles - so allowing free naval access is also a problem (you can thank Iran for that).  Israel cannot allow Gazans to come and work here, the same as it does not allow Syrians or Lebanese citizens to do so - these are countries we are at a state of war with.

 

As long as Hamas is in control - the only way to lift the blockade is for Hamas to accept the Quartet Principles - accepting the right of Israel to exist. While they refuse to do so, the blockade can be lifted only from the Egyptian side, through the shared border of Egypt and Gaza. Unfortunately, this won't take place as Egypt sees Hamas as a destabilizing factor who actively helped terrorists group within the Sinai peninsula to fight Egyptian army and police. 

 

And in regard to the "slaughter" - I guess if Hamas was to leave the populated areas and fight the IDF in the open will prevent any civilian casualties. Still, Hamas won't have this. For some strange reason - they prefer to allow the death toll to rise, as long as the leaders are well hidden in the bunker underneath Shifa hospital.

 

 

Being forced to leave your homes to go to a shelter is better than having to shelter in a school which is then bombed by the IDF though. I'm not saying it is ideal but given by your own admission the last few weeks haven't solved the issue I think that my suggestion is better than a repeat of what we've witnessed. I kind of figured that it goes without saying there is no ideal solution here.

 

I'm fully aware that Iron Dome isn't 100% effective, I already said that and I'm also aware that it doesn't stop mortars.

 

And no easing the blockade isn't meaningless, it is a humanitarian necessity for the well being of millions. Yes it might allow Hammas to gain more arms but it might also stop people living in appalling conditions and reduce the numbers willing to join their cause, all you are doing is creating more fighters for the cause.

 

Besides, it doesn't seem to me like the blockage is stopping them getting weapons given that they keep firing rockets and mortars. So actually perhaps the blockade is meaningless but not in the way you meant.

 

As for blaming Hammas for the deaths of civilians, I'm so tired of hearing this and the refusal of Israel to take responsibility for its own actions. Gaza is a tiny strip of land from which they can't get out, I'm not sure where exactly this space is you refer to and I honestly think this human shield card is heavily over played.

 

Even if Hammas do hide among the population that doesn't excuse bombing schools, hospitals and peoples homes.

 

The slaughter of 2000 people is a disgrace and a stain on the nation of Israel but you seemingly wish to absolve your country from any wrong doing in the matter.

 

What the IRA did was wrong, killing soldiers on train stations and little boys out shopping in Warrington with their mums was wrong, they didn't fight in the open but we didn't kill 2000 people in Belfast in revenge an attempt to stop the bombs. Had we done so I and most other people in the country would have condemned those responsible. And yes I know all about Bloody Sunday and other British activities against the IRA but nothing and I do mean nothing from those times comes close to the events of the last few weeks.

 

Israel aren't acting like a nation seeking a resolution to this conflict, they are acting as though the only resolution they see to it is pretty similar to the aim of Hammas that you constantly refer to. 

 

PS, if you know where their leaders are WTF are the IDF doing blowing kids up on the beach?

[omariqy]

 

Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.

By Stephanie Nebehay

GENEVA Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:24am EDT

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The United Nations logo is displayed on a door at U.N. headquarters in New York February 26, 2011.

Credit: Reuters/ Joshua Lott

 

 

 

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GENEVA (Reuters) - A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields.

Palestinian children in the Gaza and the West Bank, captured by Israel in the 1967 war, are routinely denied registration of their birth and access to health care, decent schools and clean water, the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child said.

"Palestinian children arrested by (Israeli) military and police are systematically subject to degrading treatment, and often to acts of torture, are interrogated in Hebrew, a language they did not understand, and sign confessions in Hebrew in order to be released," it said in a report.

The Israeli Foreign Ministry said it had responded to a report by the U.N. children's agency UNICEF in March on ill-treatment of Palestinian minors and questioned whether the U.N. committee's investigation covered new ground.

"If someone simply wants to magnify their political bias and political bashing of Israel not based on a new report, on work on the ground, but simply recycling old stuff, there is no importance in that," spokesman Yigal Palmor said.

The report by the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child acknowledged Israel's national security concerns and noted that children on both sides of the conflict continue to be killed and wounded, but that more casualties are Palestinian.

Most Palestinian children arrested are accused of having thrown stones, an offence which can carry a penalty of up to 20 years in prison, the committee said. Israeli soldiers had testified to the often arbitrary nature of the arrests, it said.

The watchdog's 18 independent experts examined Israel's record of compliance with a 1990 treaty as part of its regular review of a pact signed by all nations except Somalia and the United States. An Israeli delegation attended the session.

The U.N. committee regretted Israel's "persistent refusal" to respond to requests for information on children in the Palestinian territories and occupied Syrian Golan Heights since the last review in 2002.

"DISPROPORTIONATE"

"Hundreds of Palestinian children have been killed and thousands injured over the reporting period as a result of the state party military operations, especially in Gaza where the state party proceeded to (conduct) air and naval strikes on densely populated areas with a significant presence of children, thus disregarding the principles of proportionality and distinction," the report said.

Israel battled a Palestinian uprising during part of the 10-year period examined by the committee.

It withdrew its troops and settlers from the Gaza Strip in 2006, but still blockades the Hamas-run enclave, from where Palestinian militants have sometimes fired rockets into Israel.

During the 10-year period, an estimated 7,000 Palestinian children aged 12 to 17, but some as young as nine, had been arrested, interrogated and detained, the U.N. report said.

Many are brought in leg chains and shackles before military courts, while youths are held in solitary confinement, sometimes for months, the report said.

It voiced deep concern at the "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", saying 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013 alone.

Israeli soldiers had used Palestinian children to enter potentially dangerous buildings before them and to stand in front of military vehicles to deter stone-throwing, it said.

"Almost all those using children as human shields and informants have remained unpunished and the soldiers convicted for having forced at gunpoint a nine-year-old child to search bags suspected of containing explosives only received a suspended sentence of three months and were demoted," it said.

Israel's "illegal long-standing occupation" of Palestinian territory and the Syrian Golan Heights, continued expansion of "unlawful" Jewish settlements, construction of the Wall into the West Bank, land confiscation and destruction of homes and livelihoods "constitute severe and continuous violations of the rights of Palestinian children and their families", it said.

Israel disputes the international position that its settlements in the West Bank are illegal. It says the wall it built there during the uprising stopped Palestinian suicide bombers from reaching its cities.

In March, Palmor, the Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman, had said that officials from the ministry and the military had cooperated with UNICEF in its work on the report, with the goal of improving the treatment of Palestinian minors in custody.

"Israel will study the conclusions and will work to implement them through ongoing cooperation with UNICEF, whose work we value and respect," he said, in response to the UNICEF report.

(Reporting by Stephanie Nebehay in Geneva and Allyn Fisher-Ilan in Jerusalem; Editing by Alistair Lyon)

 

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/20/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/palestinians-return-home-israeli-troops-faeces-graffiti

 

 

Palestinians returning home find Israeli troops left faeces and venomous graffiti

Ahmed Owedat also found soldiers had thrown his TVs, fridge, and computers from upstairs windows and slashed furniture

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Some of the graffiti Ahmed Owedat found on returning to his home in the town of Burij. Photograph: Harriet Sherwood

When Ahmed Owedat returned to his home 18 days after Israeli soldiers took it over in the middle of the night, he was greeted with an overpowering stench.

He picked through the wreckage of his possessions thrown from upstairs windows to find that the departing troops had left a number of messages. One came from piles of faeces on his tiled floors and in wastepaper baskets, and a plastic bottle filled with urine.

If that was not clear enough, the words "**** Hamas" had been carved into a concrete wall in the staircase. "Burn Gaza down" and "Good Arab = dead Arab" were engraved on a coffee table. The star of David was drawn in blue in a bedroom.

"I have scrubbed the floors three times today and three times yesterday," said Owedat, 52, as he surveyed the damage, which included four televisions, a fridge, a clock and several computers tossed out of windows, shredded curtains and slashed soft furnishings.

A handful of plastic chairs had their seats ripped open, through which the occupying soldiers defecated, he said. Gaping holes had been blown in four ground-floor external walls, and there was damage from shelling to the top floor. There, in the living room, diagrams had been drawn on the walls, showing buildings and palm trees in the village, with figures that Owedat thought represented their distance from the border.

"I have no money to fix this," he said, claiming that his life savings of $10,000 (£6,000) were missing from his apartment. But at least it could be repaired, he acknowledged, gesturing through the broken glass at a wasteland stretching towards the Israel-Gaza border 3km away. "Every house between here and there has been destroyed."

His family of 13 fled their home after seeing troops and tanks advancing at 1am on 20 July, two days into the Israeli ground invasion. Several times, during the short-lived ceasefires in the following two weeks, they attempted to return only to find Israeli troops in their home instructing them to keep away.

The Israel Defence Forces did not respond to a request for comment.

Half an hour's drive north, a similar picture was found at Beit Hanoun girls' school, taken over by the IDF following the ground operation. Broken glass and rubble littered the floors and stairs. Tables and desks were covered in the abandoned detritus of an occupying army: hardened bread rolls, empty tins of hummus, desiccated olives, cans of energy drinks, bullet casings. Flies buzzed around the rotting food.

Here too, said the school's caretaker, Fayez, who didn't want to give his full name, soldiers had defecated in bins and cardboard boxes, and urinated in water bottles. "You will be **** here" and "Don't forget it's time for you to die" were chalked in English on blackboards.

Here, Hamas had struck back. After the troops pulled out, counter-graffiti was sprayed on the walls, referring to Hamas's militant wing, Qassam brigades. "Qassam's army will crush you – dogs" and "Israel will be defeated".

The 1,250 pupils at the school will, it is hoped, never see either set of venomous messages. Workers began the marathon cleanup operation this week but, said Fayez, "it will take at least a month to fix". The academic year is due to begin in a little over two weeks.

 

[Glarmorgan]

Gaza is one of the most densley populated areas in the world.  What open areas are you referring to?

 

Exactly. There are none. If Hamas cared to the lives of the population - it would not initiate an armed conflict with Israel. They cannot win the fight, but as long as the citizens die - they are happy.

 

Or as Ismail Hania said - the level of destruction of Gaza is a proof of Hamas victory.

[MakemineVanilla]

 

Gaza is one of the most densley populated areas in the world.  What open areas are you referring to?

 

Exactly. There are none. If Hamas cared to the lives of the population - it would not initiate an armed conflict with Israel. They cannot win the fight, but as long as the citizens die - they are happy.

 

Or as Ismail Hania said - the level of destruction of Gaza is a proof of Hamas victory.

 

 

Is there any prospect of Hamas evacuating children during conflict, like the Brits did before the blitz?

Edited August 8, 2014 by MakemineVanilla

[Glarmorgan]

Omar - pardon me for not seeing the UN as an objective body. There is an automatic majority to the Arab countries and with all due respect - I have failed to see the UN dealing with proven mass killers such as Bashar el Asaad or any of the Iranian leadership, who smashed the green uprising with brute force. We had enough of the UN here, starting in 1967, when the UN peace keeping forces fled the area when asked by Gamal Nacer. Also, in regard to the children - reports show that more than 160 children died during the digging of the tunnels. I patiently await the objective report of the UN in that matter. 

 

Second - in regard to the faeces - surely you don't expect the soldier to look for a proper toilet at that time? If so - can you please ask the Hamas to supply toilet paper for this?

[TrentVilla]

Omar - pardon me for not seeing the UN as an objective body. There is an automatic majority to the Arab countries and with all due respect - I have failed to see the UN dealing with proven mass killers such as Bashar el Asaad or any of the Iranian leadership, who smashed the green uprising with brute force. We had enough of the UN here, starting in 1967, when the UN peace keeping forces fled the area when asked by Gamal Nacer. Also, in regard to the children - reports show that more than 160 children died during the digging of the tunnels. I patiently await the objective report of the UN in that matter. 

 

Second - in regard to the faeces - surely you don't expect the soldier to look for a proper toilet at that time? If so - can you please ask the Hamas to supply toilet paper for this?

 

I'm guessing the family's home had a toilet unless that was thrown out the window with everything else they own.

[donnie]

Hopefully the US bomb the fack out of ISIS and give the iraqi army and the kurds the full support they need. Certainly an agenda when day in day out we hear about 2000 deaths (2000 to many of course) in gaza yet the death of potentially 40,000 people barely gets a mention on.