The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

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I disagree that the methods used to try and destroy Hamas' military capability call for the the targetting of densely packed urban areas, full of civilians with artillery and airstrikes.

 

People wouldn't blink if ninjas were slotting Hamas in the night and blowing up their stockpiles and tunnel network, but then that isn't what is happening. Instead Israel if inflicting suffering on innocent people, a lot of them children, as a consequence of indescrimiante strikes.

[bickster]

3. Israel and Hamas agreed a 72 hours ceasefire of 8:00 this morning. Hamas used this ceasefire as a diversion and, as it seems, kidnapped and Israeli soldier /b]during a surgical attack (still unsure whether dead or alive). I wish to emphasis - the UN and US requested these 72 hours for humanitarian purposes, which will allow the Gazans to recover a bit and for the delegations of both sides to try and achieve a long-term ceasefire in Egypt. The Hamas through that to the wind, kidnapping a soldier which, as they knew, will bring in a devastating response from the IDF. Wasn't it in Hamas' best interest to stop the "massacre of innocent civilians"? So how come they picked this specific act of aggression?

First time I've ever heard of a captured enemy soldier on the invaded countries land being described as being kidnapped. Such is the extent of your Israeli spin, you don't even realise how ridiculous that sounds mind you its on a par with the rest of your posts on the subject… no degree of objectivity at all.

[lapal_fan]

AJ, I am with you

 

1. As AJ brought up - not one here came up with a solution to deal with Hamas's strategy of using civilians as human shields. The "Command and Conquer" talks about Israel's abilitiy to hit a single target within a packed building is bollocks. If the way is to send 40 snipers and losing 25 of them just to avoid civilian casualties - this solution is bollocks. Israel asked civilians to draw back. Hamas prohibited this, declaring anyone leaving his house - will lose it. So, here's a situation - a rocket is launched from within a populated area. What should the IDF do? Leave it be?

 

 

I guess the simple solution is; don't join the army if you don't want to get shot.

 

Most silly thing I've ever heard.  Poor SNIPERS, save the people with huge caliber rifles by bombing the shit out of civilians joke.

 

 

[chrisp65]

AJ, I am with you

 

Everyone here keeps analyzing the situation through the nice, liberal, progressive European eyes. Let's just give the Palestinians what they want - and peace shall come. 

 

wrong

 

I guess I'm part of 'everyone'. What I want is for the Israeli military to stop murdering children and bombing UN shelters. 

[lapal_fan]

 

AJ, I am with you

 

Everyone here keeps analyzing the situation through the nice, liberal, progressive European eyes. Let's just give the Palestinians what they want - and peace shall come. 

 

wrong

 

I guess I'm part of 'everyone'. What I want is for the Israeli military to stop murdering children and bombing UN shelters. 

 

 

There are sections from both sides who are in commanding positions and using it to their advantage.

 

But you've got to say, the guys with all the weapons have the advantage when it comes to discussing the matters..

 

The Israeli's know that after a ceasefire, a few of their own will die from people from the Hamas side wanting to have the last word. 

 

Reaping what they've sown, sort of.. :s

[snowychap]

1. As AJ brought up - not one here came up with a solution to deal with Hamas's strategy of using civilians as human shields. The "Command and Conquer" talks about Israel's abilitiy to hit a single target within a packed building is bollocks. If the way is to send 40 snipers and losing 25 of them just to avoid civilian casualties - this solution is bollocks. Israel asked civilians to draw back. Hamas prohibited this, declaring anyone leaving his house - will lose it. So, here's a situation - a rocket is launched from within a populated area. What should the IDF do? Leave it be?

Someone did proffer a solution only you don't like it and you call it 'bollocks'.

Well, that's your prerogative but then you/the IDF/the State of Israel must take responsibility for the fall out from what you actually choose to do (as Hamas and so on must take the responsibility for their actions and the damage these may do).

This whole 'what should we do' stuff is nonsense in the way in which you've used it. If it were a genuine exhortation to others to suggest potential solutions or other courses of action then it may have some merit on that level but when it is used as some sort of defence in itself of actions taken it appears little more than a further abnegation of responsibility.

[chrisp65]

Lapal,

Yep, totally agree, both sides are headed by murderers and in a sane world the leaders on both sides would be stopped and charged with war crimes.

 

I have no sympathy for people lobbing munitions at any civilians of any colour or creed, it's mentally unstable behaviour. We've all agreed this time and time again.

 

It's the sickening psychotic attempt to legitimise deliberate ethnic cleansing and the west's acceptance of it because it's delivered in calm modern power point meeting language that worries me. We are being fed a line that it's ok to murder whole families because in some places life is cheap and dirty and there are 'terrorists' amongst them.

 

Damn right there are terrorists amongst them. I can point them out. They are the 7 year old homeless Palestinian boys sat in hospital corridors listening to their mothers and sisters dying of shrapnel wounds. In 8 years time, they will be looking for bloody revenge.

 

Israel knows this and clearly wants it.

Edited August 1, 2014 by chrisp65

[omariqy]

Apparently the kidnapping took before the ceasefire so it should continue.

[lapal_fan]

It's like this war and the Syrian war are being managed by people playing Risk with their mates.

 

"I can't attack XXX, because he's our ally currently".

[Eames]

Hamas are a bunch of fundmentalist nutters. FWIW so is the Isreali government but Israel in this situation is like pitting a 6ft 18stone prop forward against a 12 year old from the First Year 1st XI. Its not a fair fight. If you want Hamas to stop you have to make them irrelevent by dealing with the moderates, pulling out of the land that isn't yours, demolishing settlements and talking. You don't make Hamas irrelevent by blowing up hospitals and schools and doing their recruitment for them.

 

Again using the Northern Ireland comparison, you don't beat the IRA by carpet bombing the Bog Side. You do it by talking to Sinn Fein, negotiating and giving ground where you have to.

 

Israel is just as much a terrorist state as Palestine.

 

EDIT - I would also argue the majority view on this site is not the result of a misguided handwringing bleeding hearted western liberalism. More of a totally moral repugnance at the notion that one of the most advanced military nations in the world seems to have absolutely no problem with  the repeated, deliberate murder of innocent civilians.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Eames

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Bloody liberals!

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

 

 

 

 

And you can read it here! Good job, internet

 

 

Hamas has stated forthrightly that it idealizes death as much as Israel celebrates life. What other way then is there to deal with an enemy of this nature other than obliterate them completely?

 

Edited August 1, 2014 by CarewsEyebrowDesigner

[Awol]

AJ, I am with you

Everyone here keeps analyzing the situation through the nice, liberal, progressive European eyes. Let's just give the Palestinians what they want - and peace shall come.

wrong

I guess I'm part of 'everyone'. What I want is for the Israeli military to stop murdering children and bombing UN shelters.

Amen to that.

The genuine empathy and support I had for Israel was demolished when the IDF started deliberately shelling UN refugee centres and murdering children. That doesn't make me a liberal it makes me a human being, furthermore it removes any claim your comrades in arms have to being better than the scum bags in surrounding countries who do the same. **** terrorists one and all.

[A.J.Rimmer]

Today's 3 day ceasefire ended within 3 hours after what the UN, not famed for their support of Israel, described as 'flagrant breaches by Hamas'.  These are the words of the BBC.

 

Netanyahu has promised a crushing response. 

 

Some Tory MP on the radio, again described Israel's response as excessive, in view of the lesser damage caused by Hamas. 

 

But he forgot to tell us how many rockets Hamas should be allowed to fire without a reaction from Israel?  How many Israeli deaths are acceptable without Israel trying to stop them.

 

Perhaps some of you might come up with some figures...I'll gladly pass them on to Netanyahu for his consideration. 

 

This conflict will never end until the Palestinians take responsibility for their own people, territory, government, policy, call it what you will... but with Hamas there, it will not be easy.

 

Hamas are not interested in working, they are not interested in wealth creation, they are not interested in improving the standard of living and they are certainly not interested in the lives of the people.  

 

Hamas are only interested in maintaining their power and swaggering about with their guns by prolonging the conflict and raising the death toll... not just this time, but all the other times yet to come... just like the Nazis.  Did the Nazis give a shit about the German man in the street... I don't think so... they only cared about themselves... just like Hamas today.

 

There were many days in 1945 when the allies killed more enemy civilians than we lost in the entire Blitz.  Was that excessive, or did it have to be done?

 

Finally, we crushed Nazism arid rid the German people of Hitler, something they had been unable to achieve themselves... let's hope Israel does the same for the poor Palestinians.  Civilian casulties are regretable, but inevitable. 

 

I want Israel to finish the job... and it may not win many votes, but the responsible, democratic, I didn't say perfect, just democratic, governments of the world wish for the same.

[A.J.Rimmer]

 

 

AJ, I am with you

Everyone here keeps analyzing the situation through the nice, liberal, progressive European eyes. Let's just give the Palestinians what they want - and peace shall come.

wrong

I guess I'm part of 'everyone'. What I want is for the Israeli military to stop murdering children and bombing UN shelters.

Amen to that.

The genuine empathy and support I had for Israel was demolished when the IDF started deliberately shelling UN refugee centres and murdering children. That doesn't make me a liberal it makes me a human being, furthermore it removes any claim your comrades in arms have to being better than the scum bags in surrounding countries who do the same. **** terrorists one and all.

 

 

What deplorable and emotive language.

 

To have any kind of reasoned discussion, we have to realise there are no murders going on here... no, not even by Hamas... there are just killings.

 

I wonder how many of you here have actually killed anyone?

 

Let's at least start by using the correct terminology and calling things what they actually are.

 

If Hamas aims to killl every Jew on the planet, as did Hitler, that is a perfectly clear and valid aim... but as also happened with Hitler and his followers, there will be consequences...it's all the dumb feckers who snivel about it afterwards that I can't stand. 

[chrisp65]

[GarethRDR]

I wonder how many of you here have actually killed anyone?

I've killed a man.

 

[lapal_fan]

I think this thread has reached a point of no return..

[A.J.Rimmer]

I think this thread has reached a point of no return..

 

Good post.

 

I too am inclined to that way of thinking... not only in respect of this thread... but also with regard to Israel and Palestine.

 

Perhaps David Owen was right when talking about the Balkans... 'the best solution is to fight it out'.  Maybe we should allow that to happen in Palestine.

 

I can already hear you all crying 'Ooo thats not fair, Israel is stronger'... well I remember 1967 when Israel was expected to lose, but she won... I remember the celebrations of 1973, when the Egyptians caught Israel by surprise during Yom Kippur... yet 3 weeks later were begging for a ceasefire.

 

The fact is, the Arabs were stronger, much stronger, but as fighters they are even worse than the French. 

 

However well he started in 1939. after Stalingrad Hitler was sliding quickly down the tube... but credit where credit is due... did he winge... not for a moment.  So in 1945 we closed in for an easy kill.  I wasn't born then, but I do not remember my mummy and daddy telling me it wasn't fair on dear cuddly old Uncle Adolf.  He sowed it and he reaped it.

[A.J.Rimmer]

 

I wonder how many of you here have actually killed anyone?

I've killed a man.

 

 

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong... but didn't JR survive?