The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[peterms]

I totally disagree. What results are you expecting here? Did you read my previous post about Sikhs in India? These war criminals are walking free. One of the main ones even manages the Indian Hockey team at one stage. This is India I'm taking about. What chance is there of Israel or American politicians being held reponsible. Impossible mate.

Yes, I read your post. Its a common experience that war criminals walk free. Sometimes its the price you pay for peace. Sometimes, unusually, they have so few friends or so little remaining influence that they end up in the dock.

I didn't mention Israeli and US politicians being held accountable. I can't see that happening in the near or medium term. My comments are about the role that citizens of other countries can play. I see no hope at all of either Israel or the US adopting a morally defensible position, unless forced to do so by the weight of international opinion, backed by economically impressive sanctions.

I think the thing to go for is to exert enough pressure on individual politicians in countries which could influence matters that they stop following the Israeli line.

[Vive_La_Villa]

I totally disagree. What results are you expecting here? Did you read my previous post about Sikhs in India? These war criminals are walking free. One of the main ones even manages the Indian Hockey team at one stage. This is India I'm taking about. What chance is there of Israel or American politicians being held reponsible. Impossible mate.

Yes, I read your post. Its a common experience that war criminals walk free. Sometimes its the price you pay for peace. Sometimes, unusually, they have so few friends or so little remaining influence that they end up in the dock.

I didn't mention Israeli and US politicians being held accountable. I can't see that happening in the near or medium term. My comments are about the role that citizens of other countries can play. I see no hope at all of either Israel or the US adopting a morally defensible position, unless forced to do so by the weight of international opinion, backed by economically impressive sanctions.

I think the thing to go for is to exert enough pressure on individual politicians in countries which could influence matters that they stop following the Israeli line.

Fair enough. I guess to some it may seem like nothing has been resolved in the long term but we should remember that every life counts. So what may seem like a meaningless protest by some could have saved an individuals life.

[A.J.Rimmer]

History has left us with many difficult and unjust situations.  Should all the black and white people return from the Americas and hand both continents back to the Indians?  On this basis, imagine what would happen in Australasia, plus just about every other place on the planet.  

 

My Y chromosome says I’m a Celt... which means most of you would have to find somewhere else to live, so I could stay quietly on this island with only my fellow Celts for company.

 

Clearly, to go down this road would be madness.  It seems obvious therefore, we have to make the best of the cards we’ve been dealt and try to resolve such historical anomalies as fairly as possible.  This principle must also apply to Israel.

 

The alternative to compromise, is the total destruction of the state of Israel and the annihilation of the Israelis who live there.  This is a perfectly valid aim, and if the two hundred million odd enemies surrounding Israel can achieve this... good luck to them.  After all, let us not forget, this is the avowed intent of Hamas... and judging by the last election result in Gaza, this is also the intention of the people who live there.

 

BUT, if this is what they intend, as is stated in the Hamas charter and approved by the Gazan voters, why are they moaning if Israeli decide to annihilate them first... sounds to me like a perfect case of ‘fair’s fair’.

 

During WW1 we killed 1 in every 50 odd Germans, but it was not enough to end Prussian militarism or German expansionism... so 20 years later we killed 1 in every 15 Germans... and that did the trick.  So far the Israelis have killed only 1 in every 1500 odd Gazans... so it’s no wonder the Gazans are still fighting.   (I didn’t look up any of these numbers).

 

Just like Germany in the last century... what is needed is a Gazan population who understand the cost of aggression... who understand the cost of having the democratic process and the rule of law usurped... who recognise the right of others to live in peace without being attacked by their neighbours... and who realise that extreme beliefs, be they Nazi or Islamic, are a pile of pig shit which the civilised world should never tolerate.  

  

It is no accident that properly informed, right thinking people in Westminster and Washington, Brussels and Berlin, take the side of the Israelis... unlike the ill informed, wrong thinking people supporting the Gazans.

 

Finally, I lost 8 relatives in the Great War, none in WW2, and my great great grandfather was wounded in the foot at Quatre Bras, two days before Waterloo.   I am neither Jewish nor an agent of the Mossad... but I support all liberal democracies who, like Israel, believe in freedom of speech and the rule of law.  Their neighbours do not... they believe in some pathetic non-existent God... and enjoy killing those who believe otherwise.

[chrisp65]

So Israel is a legitimate liberal democracy and the Palestinians are murdering religious nut jobs. 

 

yep, message understood.

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me, hopefully today the white hats and good guys can shell a few more schools and safe havens and maybe if we're lucky, a petting zoo and an orphanage, that should speed up the demise of the raving psycho nutters at the UN and bring a peaceful resolution to all this. It's particularly important to kill or injure beyond fighting ability those amongst the enemy that are under seven years old, the little bastards. 

 

Part of me wants to reach for the site preferences, part of me knows I need to see this sort of opinion and not presume all people generally, broadly, think alike.

[lapal_fan]

I assume A.J.Rimmer didn't write that piece..

[omariqy]

History has left us with many difficult and unjust situations.  Should all the black and white people return from the Americas and hand both continents back to the Indians?  On this basis, imagine what would happen in Australasia, plus just about every other place on the planet.  

 

My Y chromosome says I’m a Celt... which means most of you would have to find somewhere else to live, so I could stay quietly on this island with only my fellow Celts for company.

 

Clearly, to go down this road would be madness.  It seems obvious therefore, we have to make the best of the cards we’ve been dealt and try to resolve such historical anomalies as fairly as possible.  This principle must also apply to Israel.

 

The alternative to compromise, is the total destruction of the state of Israel and the annihilation of the Israelis who live there.  This is a perfectly valid aim, and if the two hundred million odd enemies surrounding Israel can achieve this... good luck to them.  After all, let us not forget, this is the avowed intent of Hamas... and judging by the last election result in Gaza, this is also the intention of the people who live there.

 

BUT, if this is what they intend, as is stated in the Hamas charter and approved by the Gazan voters, why are they moaning if Israeli decide to annihilate them first... sounds to me like a perfect case of ‘fair’s fair’.

 

During WW1 we killed 1 in every 50 odd Germans, but it was not enough to end Prussian militarism or German expansionism... so 20 years later we killed 1 in every 15 Germans... and that did the trick.  So far the Israelis have killed only 1 in every 1500 odd Gazans... so it’s no wonder the Gazans are still fighting.   (I didn’t look up any of these numbers).

 

Just like Germany in the last century... what is needed is a Gazan population who understand the cost of aggression... who understand the cost of having the democratic process and the rule of law usurped... who recognise the right of others to live in peace without being attacked by their neighbours... and who realise that extreme beliefs, be they Nazi or Islamic, are a pile of pig shit which the civilised world should never tolerate.  

  

It is no accident that properly informed, right thinking people in Westminster and Washington, Brussels and Berlin, take the side of the Israelis... unlike the ill informed, wrong thinking people supporting the Gazans.

 

Finally, I lost 8 relatives in the Great War, none in WW2, and my great great grandfather was wounded in the foot at Quatre Bras, two days before Waterloo.   I am neither Jewish nor an agent of the Mossad... but I support all liberal democracies who, like Israel, believe in freedom of speech and the rule of law.  Their neighbours do not... they believe in some pathetic non-existent God... and enjoy killing those who believe otherwise.

 

Probably one of the most misinformed posts that I have read on here.  Israel believe they have a god given right to the land.

[Eames]

History has left us with many difficult and unjust situations.  Should all the black and white people return from the Americas and hand both continents back to the Indians?  On this basis, imagine what would happen in Australasia, plus just about every other place on the planet.  

 

My Y chromosome says I’m a Celt... which means most of you would have to find somewhere else to live, so I could stay quietly on this island with only my fellow Celts for company.

 

Clearly, to go down this road would be madness.  It seems obvious therefore, we have to make the best of the cards we’ve been dealt and try to resolve such historical anomalies as fairly as possible.  This principle must also apply to Israel.

 

The alternative to compromise, is the total destruction of the state of Israel and the annihilation of the Israelis who live there.  This is a perfectly valid aim, and if the two hundred million odd enemies surrounding Israel can achieve this... good luck to them.  After all, let us not forget, this is the avowed intent of Hamas... and judging by the last election result in Gaza, this is also the intention of the people who live there.

 

BUT, if this is what they intend, as is stated in the Hamas charter and approved by the Gazan voters, why are they moaning if Israeli decide to annihilate them first... sounds to me like a perfect case of ‘fair’s fair’.

 

During WW1 we killed 1 in every 50 odd Germans, but it was not enough to end Prussian militarism or German expansionism... so 20 years later we killed 1 in every 15 Germans... and that did the trick.  So far the Israelis have killed only 1 in every 1500 odd Gazans... so it’s no wonder the Gazans are still fighting.   (I didn’t look up any of these numbers).

 

Just like Germany in the last century... what is needed is a Gazan population who understand the cost of aggression... who understand the cost of having the democratic process and the rule of law usurped... who recognise the right of others to live in peace without being attacked by their neighbours... and who realise that extreme beliefs, be they Nazi or Islamic, are a pile of pig shit which the civilised world should never tolerate.  

  

It is no accident that properly informed, right thinking people in Westminster and Washington, Brussels and Berlin, take the side of the Israelis... unlike the ill informed, wrong thinking people supporting the Gazans.

 

Finally, I lost 8 relatives in the Great War, none in WW2, and my great great grandfather was wounded in the foot at Quatre Bras, two days before Waterloo.   I am neither Jewish nor an agent of the Mossad... but I support all liberal democracies who, like Israel, believe in freedom of speech and the rule of law.  Their neighbours do not... they believe in some pathetic non-existent God... and enjoy killing those who believe otherwise.

Wow.

 

 

3 things that stood out from that utter abortion of a comment.

 

• "Liberal Democracy" and Israel are not two words I expected to see together. Try "Fundamentalist Theocracy" although I'm not  sure that really covers it.
• Nothing like carpet bombing the schools and hospitals full of homeless people to re-enforce "freedom of speech and the rule of law"
• You criticise Hamas and the Palestinians for believing in a "pathetic non-existant God" wholly free of the irony that the beardy chap the Isrealis go nuts for is the same bloke with a different PR agent.

The state of Israel is a 20th Centry construction designed to soften the horror of the Holocaust. Pre 1948 it had not existed for over 1500 years.

[chrisp65]

I assume A.J.Rimmer didn't write that piece..

 

well, only AJ can answer that, it's in a different typeface which suggests it may have been lifted and pasted, but from memory, previous posts regarding views on religion and freedom loving liberal democracies I'd guess it's his own work - but that's a guess

 

we can live in hope that it's just a spoof piece he's lifted from Viz

 

am I perilously close to getting all post on poster here? perhaps I'll park this up 

[snowychap]

...they believe in some pathetic non-existent God...

To which side are you referring?

[lapal_fan]

 

I assume A.J.Rimmer didn't write that piece..

 

well, only AJ can answer that, it's in a different typeface which suggests it may have been lifted and pasted, but from memory, previous posts regarding views on religion and freedom loving liberal democracies I'd guess it's his own work - but that's a guess

 

we can live in hope that it's just a spoof piece he's lifted from Viz

 

am I perilously close to getting all post on poster here? perhaps I'll park this up 

 

 

sorry, didn't make myself clear.

 

I'm HOPING that it isn't from A.J.Rimmer.

 

Hope that helps.

[MakemineVanilla]

How come people are mostly reserving their rage for Israel's attack on Gaza?

 

The civil war in Syria has claimed a quarter of a million lives according to SOHR and there are 3 million refugees.

 

It has been described as a proxy war with America, Russia, Iran, supporting one side or the other.

 

Is it because one war is on the TV every night and the other isn't?

[omariqy]

How come people are mostly reserving their rage for Israel's attack on Gaza?

 

The civil war in Syria has claimed a quarter of a million lives according to SOHR and there are 3 million refugees.

 

It has been described as a proxy war with America, Russia, Iran, supporting one side or the other.

 

Is it because one war is on the TV every night and the other isn't?

 

Agree.  For one reason or the other it has always been more popular to be concerned with the Israel/Palestine conflict.  Maybe because it has been going on for such a long time.  There is also a genocide going on in CAR but I can't say I have seen anything on the news about it.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

We stopped caring about Syria when it stopped being Brave Rebels v Murderous Dictator, and became something a lot murkier and harder to put a narrative spin on.

[CVByrne]

At the end of the day we can't do anything to stop Israel from doing as it likes in Palestine. The only way anything will ever change is if American Politics stops being all about money. The only way to be elected to Congress or to President is to take large donations from corporations and lobbies. With the Israel lobby groups merely giving money to your campaign for little other than supporting Israel either vocally or by remaining silent. To criticise Israel would result in you essentially losing your job at the next elections as the threat (which is the same the NRA use) is to give massive financial backing to your rival at the next elections, whic 99% of the time results in you losing your seat. The American electorate is by far the most ignorant and stupid electorate in a western developed country. Advertising budget = election. 

 

So while the US political system is as broken as it is, where all political decisions are down to lobbyists and money. Then Israel can have a free hand to do whatever it wants in Palestine. There is nothing any European country can do without damaging our own economies by alienating the US. 

 

So yes what Israel is doing is savagery but there ain't anything we can do about it.

[omariqy]

Tbh I can only see this going one way and it is not good.  World War 3.  Muslim countries will eventually get the leaders the population want.  When they do there will be a massive cry to stop Israel doing what they are doing or act as a deterrent. 

[Ads]

I think AJ Rimmer's post misses the point a tad.

 

While its true to say that in war, killing the enemy and destroying their capability is a good way of winning the argument, it is wrong to suggest that the relatively young people of Gaza are their enemy at all.

 

I think that the people of Gaza want nothing more than what most people have; a quiet life, with family, work and friends. I think they see Hamas as a last resort, the only people apparently willing to stand up for them. I would disagree that the IDF should have carte blanche to do as they wish to the people of Gaza because some of them, in desperation, might have voted for Hamas.

 

If the IDF were degrading Hamas' military capability, while taking steps to form a proper resolution to this long term crisis (a two state system, withdrawl of the settlers in the West Bank that are east of the Green Line, unlocking economic potential via trade and creating peace through a mutual dependancy, helping to stem the ramapant unemployment by opening up the borders etc) then people wouldn't have an issue. They're indescrimnantly, it appears, launching air and artillery strikes into a densely populated area and targetting Joe Average, which is indefinsible.

[Ads]

Tbh I can only see this going one way and it is not good.  World War 3.  Muslim countries will eventually get the leaders the population want.  When they do there will be a massive cry to stop Israel doing what they are doing or act as a deterrent. 

 

Who in their right mind is going to tackle the IDF in a general war?

[CVByrne]

Tbh I can only see this going one way and it is not good.  World War 3.  Muslim countries will eventually get the leaders the population want.  When they do there will be a massive cry to stop Israel doing what they are doing or act as a deterrent. 

 

Te hilarity of this comment knows no bounds. WW3 

[omariqy]

 

Tbh I can only see this going one way and it is not good.  World War 3.  Muslim countries will eventually get the leaders the population want.  When they do there will be a massive cry to stop Israel doing what they are doing or act as a deterrent. 

 

Who in their right mind is going to tackle the IDF in a general war?

 

 

No one sane. 

[Ads]

 

 

Tbh I can only see this going one way and it is not good.  World War 3.  Muslim countries will eventually get the leaders the population want.  When they do there will be a massive cry to stop Israel doing what they are doing or act as a deterrent. 

 

Who in their right mind is going to tackle the IDF in a general war?

 

 

No one sane. 

 

 

No tin-pot Arab dictator or even man of the poeple is going to put his arse on the line for the Palestinian people by going to war with the IDF. They tried that, lost at that and just don't care. Not even for a land grab of their own.

 

Peace will have to come from within.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Ads