The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[snowychap]

All I try is to share thoughts and feelings from our side of the map.

Again, it's the same old 'sound very reasonable' and push a pretty lopsided view of things (which may be your lopsided view of things, fair enough).

You keep drawing the "Palestinian problem" as you see fit, but your perception is inaccurate. Not according to my standards - according to Abu Mazen's! Even he calls for a cease fire from both parties and the Hammas ignores him. It ignores him since they do not consider themselves as one.

I don't know where or when I have suggested that people shouldn't stop murdering and killing each other. I'm very much in favour of everyone, wherever they are and for whatever reason they may see their actions as right/necessary/(enter specifically self-justificatory adjective here) stopping killing and maiming other people.

I don't 'draw' the 'Palestinian problem' as I see fit - I'm suggesting that Israeli actions are not right, often contrary to international law and the defences of those actions are at best merely expedient and at worst downright atrocious (I'm not applying the latter to your defence).

Were Hamas to send someone on to this site or, rather, were a Villa fan from Gaza to come on here and mount a defence of the firing of rockets at civilian areas in Israel or the suicide bombing of people in Tel Aviv or wherever else on the basis of the terrible actions of Israel then I'd suggest to them that it wasn't right and that they ought to look at the inadequacies of their own actions in trying to address the whole problem.

But again, I've been dragged in to a conflict that appears both pointless and interminable. How apt.

[lapal_fan]

Ive read through the last 15 pages if this thread and all's that becomes apparent is an attitude of "it's not us, it's them".

I'm sure there are needless aggressors on both sides of the wall, but it seems absolutely no one is wanting to be held accountable for anyone's actions.

The place is a huge political hell hole. Until leaders cab agree and enforce attitude changes in it's people, get people to put their weapons down, nothing will change.

And as far as I'm concerned, it's the Israel side of the argument who are in a better position ti do so first, due to all the advanced weaponry they have.

[snowychap]

Shimon Peres with the Special Envoy of the Quartet.

 

The 'Special Envoy of the Quartet'?

Sounds ominously like someone sent to presage the coming of the four horsemen.

[tonyh29]

Shimon Peres with the Special Envoy of the Quartet.

 

The 'Special Envoy of the Quartet'?

Sounds ominously like someone sent to presage the coming of the four horsemen.

what is the collective term for a gathering of War Criminals out of interest 

 

 a Bush of War Criminals  ?

[peterms]

 

I think the comparison with the Nazis is just too intemperate and hyperbolic.

 

I can see how people would see the parallels between German expansion to gain Lebensraum and populating it with their own ethno/religious people of choice. And stealing farmland looks rather too similar to Arynisation to be ignored, but I think the atrocities of Nazism are just too extreme to carry the comparison any further.

 

I think a comparison with 19th Century colonialists and especially Americans is probably nearer the mark.

 

There definitely seems to be a sense that the whole Israeli project is based on the notion of terra nullius.

 

Certainly the parallels between Andrew Jackson's Indian Removal Act of 1830 (The Trail of Tears), comes the closest, especially when Israelis start talking about land swaps.

Yes, that's a good comparison in respect of the land theft aspect of what's happening.

Some of the things which have echoes of Nazi Germany more than the US genocide are the propaganda campaigns, the orchestration of rallies expressing hatred of the people to be victimised, the indoctrination of the youth, and the idea of a chosen people asserting its natural authority over the untermenschen.

The US colonisation seems to me to be more of a crude, barbaric and opportunistic landgrab, like many others including much of GB history. The Israeli approach however includes some of the more mystic stuff that in Germany was expressed as a not particularly religious notion of der Volk, and in Israel is based on religion; the tribal element is the same, and the self-justification of barbarism is the same. But in Palestine, the concentration camps are much bigger, and the guards only enter to carry out some more collective punishments in the wake of another episode of Blitzkrieg.

[peterms]

As in previous slaughters, Israel is activating its network of online trolls and astroturfers to try to defend its actions. An example here.

"Israel student union sets up “war room” to sell Gaza massacre on Facebook..."

 

I'm on another forum, discussing this topic and the Israeli on that site seems to be very aggressive in his defence of Israeli aggression. Do they all read of a script or something?

 

I mentioned this a couple of days ago. 

 

Even the wording used is similar, it's really odd. If I was the paranoid type I'd think it was orchestrated, it can't be, there surely isn't any possible merit in planting people on football forums and the like.

 

But without meaning any disrespect to Glar, you can predict when he's going to appear, and now it appears you can even predict what phrases are going to be used on what day of the 'campaign'.

 

I did wonder if it was simply a case of hearing a catchy phrase on the TV or reading it in the paper and all individually chose to run with it. I'm pretty sure that's what it must be. It was the tosh about tourist hotels where it became really weird. Different forums or platforms suddenly all appeared to have one representative suggesting Hammas should invest in tourism. Then it went away again.

Yes, there's a script, a list of the points to be made. Some of the people doing the posting are paid, but I'm sure not all of them are. They aim to present themselves as ordinary people rather than agents of the propagandists, of course, to conceal their purpose and make out it's just ordinary people expressing a personal view. There's something in the Guardian about GCHQ doing similar, driving traffic to sites, changing the results of opinion polls and other things designed to deceive and manipulate opinion by these interventions.

[snowychap]

what is the collective term for a gathering of War Criminals out of interest 

 

 a Bush of War Criminals  ?

 

A Hague of war criminals?

 

Not the man, obviously - poor Willy.

[MakemineVanilla]

Some people ask the question as to why we get so animated about Israel's missile attacks and have very little or nothing to say about Obama's drone strikes in Pakistan or the British parliament's overwhelming endorsement of the use of missiles in Libya.

 

It does seem that we are rather selective in our outrage.

[Rovers13]

The Arabs who stayed put are currently citizens of the Israeli state, enjoying this democracy, being a part of the parliament, enjoying all the rights the non-Muslim citizens do.

Is this what they teach Israeli kids in school?

The Arabs have been thrown off their own land, had their homes stolen, and the state has been complicit in this. They are prevented from farming their remaining land by blocks and barriers enforced by armed forces who shoot to kill at the slightest excuse. Their water is taken to serve the illegal settlements, all with the active encouragement of both the government of Israel and the great majority of Israelis.

Israel is the aggressor, the thief, the intruder. I find it incomprehensible that with the Nazi aggression still in living memory, so many Israelis should not only copy their approach and attitudes, but pretend to be shocked and puzzled that people should find this wholly unacceptable.

What are you referring to? That Arabs within the borders of Israel are full citizens of the state. That's what I said.

Also - you keep talking about "shoot to kill", but the numbers don't add up. 27 deaths in 2013 in the West Bank is far from "Shoot to kill". I was there, I served there, shoot to kill?! Can you please try to look into things and not just repeating unfounded mantras?

Comparing Israel to the Nazis is preposterous. Or maybe not? Give me a couple of minutes, I'll try to locate the killing pits with the bodies. Maybe I'll find some to support your claim.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying right now. But I think it detracts from your argument by trying to argue against any similarities by taking the comparison so literally and dismissing any possible similarities.

[tonyh29]

Some people ask the question as to why we get so animated about Israel's missile attacks and have very little or nothing to say about Obama's drone strikes in Pakistan or the British parliament's overwhelming endorsement of the use of missiles in Libya.

 

It does seem that we are rather selective in our outrage.

 

Libya as I understand it every effort was made to avoid civilian casualties , where as Israel seem to be making every effort to inflict them 

[Rovers13]

Some people ask the question as to why we get so animated about Israel's missile attacks and have very little or nothing to say about Obama's drone strikes in Pakistan or the British parliament's overwhelming endorsement of the use of missiles in Libya.

It does seem that we are rather selective in our outrage.

To be fair, though I don't like the drones, they seem more targeted and kill less civilians. It still sucks though

[peterms]

Some people ask the question as to why we get so animated about Israel's missile attacks and have very little or nothing to say about Obama's drone strikes in Pakistan or the British parliament's overwhelming endorsement of the use of missiles in Libya.

It does seem that we are rather selective in our outrage.

To be fair, though I don't like the drones, they seem more targeted and kill less civilians. It still sucks though

And both are likely to deepen the sense of outrage and anger among the people who suffer them, creating more resistance and recruiting more people to fight. Since the enemy they face has massively superior firepower, the way they fight will be through methods we call terrorism. We and our allies are making the world a more dangerous place.

[Awol]

Some people ask the question as to why we get so animated about Israel's missile attacks and have very little or nothing to say about Obama's drone strikes in Pakistan or the British parliament's overwhelming endorsement of the use of missiles in Libya.

It does seem that we are rather selective in our outrage.

Libya as I understand it every effort was made to avoid civilian casualties , where as Israel seem to be making every effort to inflict them

That isn't true mate, the IDF have dropped leaflets in advance on areas they are going to hit because of confirmed rocket firing points, given verbal warnings in advance asking civvies to move from a particular area and taken other warning measures.

What is being missed in all the criticism of the Israeli response in Gaza is just that - it is a response to escalating and indiscriminate rocket fire from Gaza against civilian targets. Does anyone really expect them to just take it?

[rendelc]

Not at all . If hammas stopped firing these rockets do you think Israel would cease hostilities or do you think they are too committed ?

[blandy]

Comparing Israel to the Nazis is preposterous. Or maybe not? Give me a couple of minutes, I'll try to locate the killing pits with the bodies. Maybe I'll find some to support your claim.

That Israeli forces have been involved in atrocities is undeniable, unfortunately. That doesn't make them the same as the SS, or make Israel like Nazi Germany, but nevertheless, it's almost like the thing where an abused child grows up into an abuser.

 

Another view from outside is that Israel, as a "first world" nation with all the arms, media and technological advantages that brings is certainly using that overwhelming superior capability to obliterate people with none of those things, and then use media to "defend" the conduct.

 

Israel has to change in order to bring about peace, but it can't or doesn't want to.

[blandy]

What is being missed in all the criticism of the Israeli response in Gaza is just that - it is a response to escalating and indiscriminate rocket fire from Gaza against civilian targets. Does anyone really expect them to just take it?

 

That's arguable at best. And even if it is a response of the type you suggest, it's an utterly disproportionate and indiscriminate one, which only serves to do what pms said above.

 

The reason I say it is arguable is because the whole thing this time was triggered by the horrible murder of some Israeli kids near the border, by persons unknown (presumed to be Palestinians). Then there was the burning alive of a Palestian child by Israeli settlers who have confessed to doing that.

None of that is remotely OK. None of that justifies anyone firing rockets, dropping bombs and all the rest that has gone on.

It seems to me that both sides are essentially permanently sitting there waiting for their latest "justification" to inflict terror one the other side. There is no justification to inflict terror on innocent people though.

The terror and now loss of a life in Israel is dreadful. The terror and multiple loss of life in Palestine is far far worse.

[Glarmorgan]

OK. 

 

1. A cease fire was declared today at 9am Israel time. Israel ceased all offensive acts at that point of time. You can check it out. During this time Hammas launched more than 40 rockets towards Israel till 16:00, when Israel decided that enough is enough. 

 

2. Here's what we deal here with: The truce was declared. The political arm of the Hammas accepted it. The Armed forces of the Hammas took their time to ponder over it. The Islamic Jihad rejected it, whici eventually brought the rejection of the Hammas Armed Forces. In the mean time, Abu Mazen accepted the truce and called for a ceasefire of 48. You can add a couple of rockets launched at us from Sinai last night (not an occupied territory for my best of knowledge).

So - can you please tell me who do we need to speak to? to come to agreements with?

 

3. The Hammas list of demands include things which are not relevant to Israel. Opening the gates of the Egyptian border. Paying the salaries of the people is Gaza. 

 

P.S. There is no doubt regarding the identity of the murderers of the 3 Israelis. Their identity is known, their voices are quite clear on the recording of the call one of the kidnapped Israeli to the emergency services. No "allegedly" and not "presumed to be".

Edited July 15, 2014 by Glarmorgan

[Rugeley Villa]

hammas and other terrorist groups dont want peace, they love it when hundreds of their people get killed as its a big recruitment oppurtunity. they use their people as shieds and will never want peace.

[Glarmorgan]

 

Comparing Israel to the Nazis is preposterous. Or maybe not? Give me a couple of minutes, I'll try to locate the killing pits with the bodies. Maybe I'll find some to support your claim.

That Israeli forces have been involved in atrocities is undeniable, unfortunately. That doesn't make them the same as the SS, or make Israel like Nazi Germany, but nevertheless, it's almost like the thing where an abused child grows up into an abuser.

 

Another view from outside is that Israel, as a "first world" nation with all the arms, media and technological advantages that brings is certainly using that overwhelming superior capability to obliterate people with none of those things, and then use media to "defend" the conduct.

 

Israel has to change in order to bring about peace, but it can't or doesn't want to.

 

 

Sabra and Shatila is a dark point in our history. In undeniable, but in order to try and compare it to atrocities as the Nazis did you need to show consistency and to show this was a part of a bigger plan. Not that it's that important, but to make it clear - the slaughter in Sabra and Shatila was not done by Israeli soldiers. The Israeli soldiers should have defended to Muslims and prevented this - no doubt about it.

In regard to Israel's superior capabilities - that's a given. As you can probably imagine, Israel's arsenal holds a bit more than is currently used in Gaza and still - you cannot expect Israel to seek a "proportionate" response and ignoring its advantages. That Hammas should think twice before launching an attack at a vastly superior opponent. Or maybe it's exactly what they want ... Beside, what is that "proportionate" response everyone is seeking? Let's say - for every rocker launched from Gaza, the IDF should launch one 155mm Shell back? 1 for 1?

[Xann]

Massive retaliation hasn't worked over the last few years, has it?

 

Someone needs to step back, and it needs to be Israel.

 

On the current course what does the future hold?

 

Someone with a grudge obtaining a weapon that really packs a punch?