The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[blandy]

talking about the peaceful Arabs who lived here before 1948? Haj Amin Al Husseini - their leader - was an ally of one, Adolf Hitler. Collaborating with the SS, helping the recruitment of Muslim soldiers from Bosnia to fight alongside the Germans

Ahhh... I just LOVE these arguments. Since the Israeli conquered them at 1948 - it makes sense they are currently firing rockets at Israel.

Hmm. You have my sympathy and concern for living under risk of rocket attack, it must be horrendous.

But regarding the historical situations, the standards seem different for different sides, as you demonstrate above.

Ultimately history and the rights and wrongs won't solve the problem.

Only Israel can solve it. And that requires a complete change in the way the government of that country behaves. When a response to a horrible act by persons unknown is to simply obliterate areas of Gaza, causing way more death and destruction, the cycle will continue. Collective punishment hasn't worked and never will.

[blandy]

...in contrast to the West Bank, Israel withdrew all its forces and civilian settlements from Gaza Strip. There are zero Israelis there - what prevents the Hammas from making Gaza the pearl of the middle east? Supporting the citizens? Expanding the economy? No tanks, no settlement - just Palestinians.

 

Perhaps the illegal blockade?

 

There have been several reports and studies analysing the effect of the blockade on Gaza.

In July 2008, an UNRWA report on the situation in Gaza stated that "the number of households in Gaza below the consumption poverty line continued to grow, reaching 51.8 percent in 2007 (from 50.7 percent in 2006)".^[137] In the same year, a Palestinian Bureau of Statistics study concluded that 80% of families in Gaza were living below the poverty line.^[138] The CIA World Fact book places this figure at an estimated 70% for 2009.^[139]

A World Health Organisation assessment conducted in 2009 claimed that the level of anemia in babies (9–12 months) was as high as 65%, while a Socio-economic and Food Security Survey Report stated that 61% of Gazans are food insecure and reliant on humanitarian aid. Of those that are food insecure, 65% are children under 18 years. Lastly, a European Network of Implementing Development Agencies (EUNIDA) report notes that, because of the security buffer zone imposed around Gaza as part of the blockade, as of June 2009, 46% of agricultural land was either inaccessible or out of production.^[140]

On 14 June 2010, the International Committee of the Red Cross noted that the increasing scarcity of items has led to rises in cost of goods while quality has fallen.^[141]There is also "an acute electricity crisis", where electricity supplies are "interrupted for seven hours a day on average". As a consequence, they note that public services, particularly health services, have suffered, posing "a serious risk to the treatment of patients". In addition, medical equipment is difficult to repair, and medical staff cannot leave to gain more training. Lastly, the ICRC note that sanitation is suffering, because construction projects lack the equipment needed, or the equipment is of poor quality. Only 60% of the population is connected to a sewerage collection system, with the rest polluting the Gaza aquifer. As a result, water is largely "unfit for consumption".^[142]

A 25 May 2010 United Nations Development Programme report stated that, as a result of the blockade, most of Gaza's manufacturing industry has closed, and unemployment stood at an estimated 40%, a decrease on previous years. The blockade has also prevented much needed construction, noting that almost "none of the 3,425 homes destroyed during Cast Lead have been reconstructed, displacing around 20,000 people". Less than 20% "of the value of the damages to educational facilities has been repaired", only "half of the damage to the power network has been repaired", "no repair has been made to the transport infrastructure", "a quarter of damaged farmland has been rehabilitated and only 40% of private businesses have been repaired".^[143]

An August 2012 report by UNRWA of the blockade's effects and general trends in Gaza forecasted that the region's population growth would outpace developments in economic infrastructure. In its press release, UN humanitarian coordinator Maxwell Gaylard said, "Gaza will have half a million more people by 2020 while its economy will grow only slowly. In consequence, the people of Gaza will have an even harder time getting enough drinking water and electricity, or sending their children to school."^[144]

[Chindie]

I guess the use of collective punishment by Israel and it's effectiveness would depend on what the aim is. Is it to tell 'Palestine' to behave and pack it in? Or is it to encourage them to give up and accept, at best, a life as second class citizens, unwanted peasants making the place unpleasant for 'Israelis', or better to simply clear off?

All this Israeli shit always has the undercurrent, like all terrorism, of trying to get what they want politically. And sadly, for what little is left of Palestine, what they want is land, with no non-Jews on it. Even when Gaza isn't being flattened by high tech weaponry (worth looking up some of the stories about that - its on record a missile was once used to kill an opposition leader whilst he was in his home. Which happened to be part of a communal block. Which in Gaza means it's riddled with people because they're squeezed in everywhere. Israel didn't care...) their day to day life is shit. Doing something as apparently simple as crossing a check point is at best an ordeal, or at worst will leave you dead.

Sadly Palestine has it's share of idiots happy to give Israel an excuse to put this all into action.

[chrisp65]

 

 

Let's play pretend - what else do you think Israel needs to do in order to bring Hammas to stop seeing it as an entity which should be cleansed? 

 

 

Oh I think the tactic as it stands is pretty close to perfect.There is no way that the recent murder of 100 or so civilians (the exact number is, lets be honest, irrelevant as they are only statistics and human detritus) could possibly lead to new recruits for the murderers on the other side. Current Israeli policy of bombing the poor and the uneducated is brilliant and will, I'm sure, lead to a drop off in recruits looking for revenge.

 

In fact, if only you could kill more of them, quicker, preferably quite young kids, doubtless that would cause the situation to be resolved even quicker. Then, once Israel have killed, say, 50,000 as a nice round number, then that number of killings will clearly cause the other side to switch to tourism infrastructure and leave poor innocent Israel alone.

 

For the record, if you were from the other mad team, I'd pretty much be saying the same thing. 

 

On absolutely no account should both sides actually honestly talk to each other for a painful and extended period of time about actually inching towards resolving this situation, that's the last thing the gangsters and murderers and arms salesmen need. 

[bickster]

Still don't get why a religion needs a state all of its own. Hey we believe a particular fairy story, we need our own country.

The kind of logic that belongs in the medieval era

[Awol]

Hamas fire rockets (for months) at Israel from Gaza and eventual the big boy says "sod this, you're having it." Fair enough Israel.

 

Meanwhile... Israeli settlers in the West Bank are carrying out systematic ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, stealing their land, destroying their livelihoods (cutting down olive orchards, cutting off water, appropriating their land etc) but the Palestinians are classed as terrorists for responding.

 

Fact is there are terrorists in Gaza, Ramallah and Tel Aviv.  For either side to try and claim otherwise is farcical.

 

The answer is simple, end the occupation.  If Palestinians continue to attack Israel after that then pound them to dust.

[MakemineVanilla]

[chrisp65]

 

Yeah, admittedly that doesn't look too clever, but as Glar says, if they would only concentrate on building tourist hotels they'd be fine.

[omariqy]

Chindie, am I right in remembering that you spent some time studying the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

[TrentVilla]

Still don't get why a religion needs a state all of its own. Hey we believe a particular fairy story, we need our own country.

The kind of logic that belongs in the medieval era

 

As does all religion but that is for a different thread I guess.

[TrentVilla]

 

What they need is a water park and it could be the new Dubai. 

[blandy]

Indie's Cartoon

[omariqy]

Not trying to get into a conversation about religion here but thought this video was interesting:

http://youtu.be/wXjP1xdqbmE

Edited July 14, 2014 by omariqy

[Chindie]

Chindie, am I right in remembering that you spent some time studying the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

I did. My dissertation was focused on it and it was a fairly regular feature of most of the courses I took.

[Glarmorgan]

 

 

What they need is a water park and it could be the new Dubai. 

 

 

Instead of mocking me, you should try to figure out how come you fall for such lies. These maps are, at best, falsified. For starters - there was no Palestinian sate in 1946. Only the British Mandate. If you wish to be more accurate, never, in the history of mankind, there was a Palestinian state. There were no "Palestinian territories" as there were no "Jewish territories" in 1946. According to official numbers, the population in this place in 1948 was 1/3 Jews and 2/3 Arabs. Arab majority - no doubt, but this is far, far away from the maps you brought up here. If you want me to go on - there were around 600,000 Jews here in 1948. So, the Arabs were roughly 1.2 Million. Most of this country was barren. The entire triangle shaped land to the south, the Negev, is a desert. The biggest town there was/is BeerSheba which, back then, was a hell hole. Check Wikipedia, there's a nice pic of the city from 1920.

Israel currently holds 8 Million people (excluding the west bank and Gaza) and the Negev is half empty, so you're bringing me maps from the time there were 1.9 Million here and paint the Negev as a Palestinian Land?! It was empty! Check pictures of a town called "Um Rashrash". Today it is named "Eilat". When the Israeli forces got to it on 1948 there was nothing but a couple of police shacks. Nothing else. Look up the pics - you'll see for yourselves? Where were the Palestinians there?

 

And for some strange reason, you've skipped the 1947 UN Partition Map, or - in other words - if the UN split the country between the Jews and the Arabs - why there were no Palestinian state in 1948? After all, the during the Israeli independence war, the West Bank and Gaza, which were supposed to be a part of the Palestinian state - were conquered, but not by Israel. Nope. By Jordan and Egypt. So when it was really important - who "stole" the Palestinian Lands?

 

Give me a break. You can totally back the Palestinians up, but at least come up with something reliable to work with.

[Glarmorgan]

Not trying to get into a conversation about religion here but thought this video was interesting:

http://youtu.be/wXjP1xdqbmE

 

These are Naturey Karta (I have no idea how to spell it in English). They are anti Zionist Jews who claim that only the Messiah will bring the Jewish state. From their point of view, the Zionists hamper their desires. That is why you'll find them supporting the Hizbulla or meeting Iranian Leaders, as to show how anti-Israel are they.

 

They are an insignificant minority who are no part of the internal life in Israel. 

[Glarmorgan]

 

 

Let's play pretend - what else do you think Israel needs to do in order to bring Hammas to stop seeing it as an entity which should be cleansed? 

 

 

Oh I think the tactic as it stands is pretty close to perfect.There is no way that the recent murder of 100 or so civilians (the exact number is, lets be honest, irrelevant as they are only statistics and human detritus) could possibly lead to new recruits for the murderers on the other side. Current Israeli policy of bombing the poor and the uneducated is brilliant and will, I'm sure, lead to a drop off in recruits looking for revenge.

 

In fact, if only you could kill more of them, quicker, preferably quite young kids, doubtless that would cause the situation to be resolved even quicker. Then, once Israel have killed, say, 50,000 as a nice round number, then that number of killings will clearly cause the other side to switch to tourism infrastructure and leave poor innocent Israel alone.

 

For the record, if you were from the other mad team, I'd pretty much be saying the same thing. 

 

On absolutely no account should both sides actually honestly talk to each other for a painful and extended period of time about actually inching towards resolving this situation, that's the last thing the gangsters and murderers and arms salesmen need. 

 

 

If Israel waned to obliterate Gaza - Israel has the ability to do so. You know that as well as I know that.

 

Israel has nothing to gain by killing civilians. On the contrary - it brings up pressure from EU and US. Civilians are being killed as the Hammas wages his war from within populated territories. Hammas knows the world usually counts the bodies and it plays according to these rules. If you store rockets under a school or shoot rockets from a Mosque - the school and the mosque will be bombed to prevent further shootings.

 

BTW, as the Hammas is drawing his own people into the line of fire - it also targets cities in Israel. I have earlier read that more than 1000 rockets and mortar shells were launched from Gaza to Israel. Lucky for us, Israel have the Iron Dome, but what if not? 

 

The situation with Hammas cannot be permanently resolved until they'll accept the terms of the quartet, starting with recognizing the right for the state of Israel to exist. They still refer to Israel as "The Zionist Entity"...

[Glarmorgan]

The answer is simple, end the occupation.  If Palestinians continue to attack Israel after that then pound them to dust.

 

I accept, but as I said - there is no occupation in Gaza. They have an Israeli-Free borderline with Egypt which is usually closed due to the hatred between the secular regime in Egypt and the Islamic lunatics of Hammas.

[Glarmorgan]

Still don't get why a religion needs a state all of its own. Hey we believe a particular fairy story, we need our own country.

The kind of logic that belongs in the medieval era

 

Well, this could work if the Jewish people weren't harassed and assault due to their religion. I can go back to the Ukarina in the 16th century and, obviously, to the holocaust, but if you'd like to look at modern times, it was only a couple of days ago, a pro-Palestinian demonstration in France turned against Jews who were at the synagogue at the time. Not Israelis - just Jews of French nationality. Didn't bother the Pro-Palestines. I can show you some youtube clips of the Palestinian leaders crying against the Jews (and not only against Israelis).

 

You can chekck http://www.palwatch.org/

There's a lot of stuff over there.

 

And BTW - Hasbara? Getting paid for it? Do you really think the Israeli government will send a representative to the forum of Aston Villa?! Sorry. We can disagree on practically everything, but there is a common thing for the two of us - we support the same crappy team in the Premier League. I only do it from 2000 miles away.

[peterms]

I'm disappointed to see anyone at all, even an Israeli, attempting to justify the hideous war crimes of the apartheid state which Israel has become.

They want to drive the Palestinians from their own country. They recognise no law which interferes with this aim. They are utterly ruthless and pitiless in their annexation of this land which they are stealing, and the genocide of the people who live there.

It is an utter disgrace. Vicious, amoral, scum.