Premier League Spurs - Arry's gone but we still dislike them...

[kurtsimonw]

IIf you don't believe Glaston is on the wind up then you're just kidding yourself. I have no problem with you at all Joey, but to be so disrespectful to say that some of Villa's trophies don't count or to basically believe that football before Spurs doesn't matter (on a Villa forum) is not really on. Either he's just a very disrespectful, deluded, Spurs fan or he's on the wind up. I can't see any other way.

You were saying I was on the wind up the other day when I questioned MON's management of the club and that obviously hit a nerve with you. You should accept people have different opinions.

Not at all. You said MON persistantly fails, which is a load of rubbish otherwise we wouldn't be where we are.

As above, just because somebody has a different opinion doesn't mean Ihave to accept it. I could say Titus Bramble is a better winger than Messi, it's an opinion, but a completel unfounded one.

Not sure how what you've said even applies to what I said about Glaston. Unless you agree that half of our trophy haul shouldn't count because he said so? :?

[avfc89]

IIf you don't believe Glaston is on the wind up then you're just kidding yourself. I have no problem with you at all Joey, but to be so disrespectful to say that some of Villa's trophies don't count or to basically believe that football before Spurs doesn't matter (on a Villa forum) is not really on. Either he's just a very disrespectful, deluded, Spurs fan or he's on the wind up. I can't see any other way.

You were saying I was on the wind up the other day when I questioned MON's management of the club and that obviously hit a nerve with you. You should accept people have different opinions.

Not at all. You said MON persistantly fails, which is a load of rubbish otherwise we wouldn't be where we are.

As above, just because somebody has a different opinion doesn't mean Ihave to accept it. I could say Titus Bramble is a better winger than Messi, it's an opinion, but a completel unfounded one.

Not sure how what you've said even applies to what I said about Glaston. Unless you agree that half of our trophy haul shouldn't count because he said so? :?

You don't have to accept a person's opinion, just don't label me as a WUM, I am a passionate Aston Villa supporter and maybe I view certain subjects differently to others. I do believe MON has persistently failed with certain issues like player rotation and tactics. Maybe I was a little vague when I wrote that, I apologise for that.

[joey55]

Did Glaston really come on here saying your trophies don't count? Or was it the usual bullshit, of a Villa poster saying we are better then you becasue we've won more and Glaston countering by saying alot of what you won was prior to the modern professional era etc? If he did just come along and start spouting of,f saying your trophies don't count, then he is out of order and I apologise for defending him. From what I've read of his posts it genuinely doesn't sound like him and he is usually just reacting to situations (ie as I've suggested could be possible in this example), but maybe I've got the guy wrong.

[kurtsimonw]

*Somebody mentioned that Villa fans have a 'constant air of superiority' when it comes to Spurs.

*Brumstopdogs says 'why should we? we've finished higher than Spurs for 67% of their history". He also mentioned our higher trophy count.

*Glaston basically says half of our trophies don't count and since their formation they have more trophies (which is incorrect as I pointed out earlier, it's 16 a peice).

To me it's very disrespectful and unnecessary. I like how he failed to reply about us finishing higher in the league 67% of the time. Even SimplySpurfect said "A league win is a league win, regardless of when or how it was acheived". The fact that SS agrees with us here speaks volumes, Glaston is very on his own when it comes to this arguement. He'll do well to remember it's a Villa forum afterall.

[Brumstopdogs]

There was me thinking we'd actually won more of both the main competitions since Spurs were a professional club as well

Someone get Spurs to update their website - it must be lying.

As for professional football Spurs have made a solid 36th place

http://www.rsssf.com/tablese/engprof-alltime.html

Sorry mate you're on the wrong site to spread any Spurs propaganda. We've won more major trophies, won bigger and been superior for 86 out of your 128 years. As much as you try and defend your buddy really it is not going to change that overall (the key measure the real world looks at) we've trumped you big time

[SimplySpurfect]

There was me thinking we'd actually won more of both the main competitions since Spurs were a professional club as well

Someone get Spurs to update their website - it must be lying.

As for professional football Spurs have made a solid 36th place

http://www.rsssf.com/tablese/engprof-alltime.html

Sorry mate you're on the wrong site to spread any Spurs propaganda. We've won more major trophies, won bigger and been superior for 86 out of your 128 years. As much as you try and defend your buddy really it is not going to change that overall (the key measure the real world looks at) we've trumped you big time

Spurs have still won 2 league titles and no European Cup and spent about 4 in 10 of the top flight years as a non top flight side

And then the true and complete facts about Spurs in the main 2 competitions:

Tottenham:

League: 2 winners and 4 runner ups (6)

European Cup: 0 wins.

Overall 86 out of 128 years to Villa in totality (not fudged ala Glaston)

We all know it and most other fans know it!

They were also runners up a whopping 4 times - I think the last one was back before England won the World Cup though

To be fair to them they've spent 47 years as a non top flight team so maybe comparing the 2 main competitions isn't fair

Everton don't need to pretend they've got history. We all know Spurs history really starts in 1950 (as they did little before that) but it tails off by about the close of 1974 where we picked our game up and continued being more successful

A quick and complete comparison across the 2 main competitions!

Villa:

League: 7 winners and 10 runner ups (17)

European Cup: 1 win.

Years as a top flight club: 110

Everton:

League: 9 winners and 7 runner ups (16)

European Cup: 0 wins.

Years as a top flight club: 118

Tottenham:

League: 2 winners and 4 runner ups (6)

European Cup: 0 wins.

Years as a top flight club: 75

As you can see Villa and Everton have the history to back up the talk and hence there is a mutual respect. Spurs, on the other hand, have a long way to go in the biggies but have possibly done better in some of the smaller more peripheral competitions

We'll ignore the all time records and replace them with the Glaston version! (strange he didn't start from 1975 or the premier league era where we've outperformed Spurs in the league and in competitions won)

Or alternatively the complete picture that overwhelms anything you can say:

86 years out of 128 the superior club!

Won 400% more of the main 2 trophies! (both more recently - Spurs still not come even 2nd in the main 2 for over 45 years!)

Outperformed Spurs in both the main competitions!

Won more major trophies than Spurs!

It's not our fault we were bigger than you when you preferred to be an amateur club! Some things never change

I agree with BOF. The reality is when Spurs fans come on a Villa site and give it the "bigun" as happens quite regularly then you're going to come off second best.

Any talk of "we've done this" and "we've done that" will always be trumped by the fact that Villa have outperformed Spurs in the main 2 competitions and done better than you overall.

So, if Spurs fans do want to come on here, the least they should do is respect they're coming on a more succesful club's board

To be honest I think that is harsh on Everton!

They have a far superior history to Spurs!

7 more league titles and I believe over 30 more top flight seasons!

The bottom line is that overall Villa have been superior to Tottenham - it's just a fact over your complete history:

86 years out of 128 superior to Spurs!

Won more major trophies!

Outperformed Spurs in the main 2 competitions!

Won more of the main 2 trophies!

So history wise it's an argument no Spurs fan can ever win however I think if it's a debate about what might happen in the future then that's a different story.

Maybe, to give you a fighting chance we should stick to looking forwards

I think the best bit is that we've been superior to Tottenham for 86 years out of their 128 year history (over 2 in every 3 years in Villa's favour), outperformed them in the main 2 competitions, won more of the main 2 competitions as well as winning more major trophies.

I'm not surprised that winds him up because probably in his deluded mind he had thought Spurs had done better before the reality of the complete situation was told.

Maybe he should have picked on Huddersfield. Second thoughts, even they have won more top flight league titles than Spurs!

Don't forget they've been one of the top two teams in the country a whopping 6 times though!

We've only managed 17!

The bit of your post where your point falls apart is from 1908! Although saying that we've finished above you more often in the main competition from that date anyway and spent more years as a top flight side and won more of the main 2 competitions combined from that date!

Back to the reality, you were founded in 1882 not 1908! Sorry, you were'nt as big as Arsenal for many of those years who were happily mixing it with us big boys! The records don't sadly start from when you want them to although I give you marks for believing Spurs are that important that they should do!

The complete book:

86 years out of 128 superior to Spurs!

Won more major trophies!

Outperformed Spurs in the main 2 competitions!

Won more of the main 2 trophies!

Moving the goalposts will not change that for you I'm afraid but nice try!

We've been better than Spurs since the year the Vietnam War ended (1975) winning more competitions, the bigger competitions and finishing above you more often.

We've been better than Spurs in the premier league era winning more and finishing above you more often.

Anyway, all that's doing is moving the goalposts like you have been doing and it's not something I really need to do as it just nullifies any moving the goalpost statement you can make.

What is factual though is that since Tottenham were founded we've been superior based on the status of the main competition at the time for 86 years out of 128!

1882-1888 - the top competition was the FA Cup and each season we finished in a higher position (7-0 to Villa)

1888-2009 - the top competition was the league and in 79 out of 121 years we've been the club in the higher position

In totality therefore it's 86 years out of 128, we've won more major trophies and won bigger! In the main 2 competitions Spurs haven't even come 2nd since black and white TV!

You were good between 1950-1974 though. It's just the rest you've been second best! Spurs not being big enough and not following the lead of Arsenal in the earlier years is your problem not ours!

In totality, the measure that overwhelms any thing you can say, we're superior and have been since your foundation!

As for the comment about Villa fans having a constant air of superiority then why shouldn't we?

Since Spurs were founded we've been the superior club for 86 out of your 128 years (67% of your history), won more major trophies, and outperformed you in the 2 main competitions.

Overall we've been better than you for over 2 in every 3 years!

There's something quite familiar about your posts, isn't there? Who needs new discussions and debates when you can just repeat the same post fifteen times even though nobody actually cares, right?

Even the Villa fans that hate Spurs aren't acknowledging your posts anymore.

[Demitri_C]

Did Glaston really come on here saying your trophies don't count? Or was it the usual bullshit, of a Villa poster saying we are better then you becasue we've won more and Glaston countering by saying alot of what you won was prior to the modern professional era etc?

if you look back you will see he did

[Brumstopdogs]

Cheers for going to the trouble SimplySpurfect - glad to see the message is getting clearer we've won more majors and bigger (400% more of the main 2)

Now our superior history has been confirmed - what do you make of the future for Spurs?

[tinker]

Who gives a flyin f**k! Spurs are hyped club up by a London based media. Most fans of the other contenders resent this and this is where the hatred of spurs stems from. The fact that some of their fans believe the hype does nothing to help their cause.

[sbaldie1]

I`m maybe one of the few that hasnt got any great dislike for Spurs on here, but I`m sure we can all make statistics lean in our favour, which is what Glaston does.

Obviously when its virtually anti-Villa stats on a Villa Forum, well lets just say it isnt the wisest thing to do...hence the stick he & ultimately Spurs get.

I like many others welcome other clubs supporters on here as long as they realise we are obviously pro-Villa & are respectful that we are just that. I feel that Glaston does on occasion post some decent stuff & other times posts "facts" that are only going to irk Villa supporters.

Ive read some articles on Redcafe, a site which Glaston also posts on & they seem to thing hes a bit of a knob, so its not just Villa fans, but maybe we respond to his comments/ wind-ups more?

[joey55]

This is probably going to annoy/anger many of you, but it genuinely ( and I stress genuinley) isn't meant to. But as a results of this stupid Glaston and Brumstopdogs argument, I had a look at your trophies and was honestly stunned by your lack of success. Obvioulsy I'm not that familiar with your history, but had you asked me to guess how many major trophies Villa have won since the war, I'd have gone for double the amount you have. You've only won 9 major trophies in the last 100 years. Please don't bother responding in an anti Spurs way as I'm not trying to compare or continue that argument, but just point out I was really very suprised. If someone had asked me who had won the most in the last 100 years out of you and Chelsea, despite their recent success, i'd have still said Villa.

I guess I thought you had a golden period around the time you won the European Cup. I'd be genuinley interested to hear a little more about what happened to that team and why more trophies weren't won at the time. It's seems you came from nowhere (7th the season before) to win the title and then the following season finsihed 11th (depsite winning the Europeaen Cup). Surely there must be some story here. It seems very strange you go from winning the league to finsihng 11th in the space of a year. Usually when a team has such success, it is part of a several year period when the club is at the top and winning things, it's must be very rare for club to come from midtable, win the league and European Cup and then go straight back to mid table. Within 5 years you'd been relegated. Were there financial problems, that prevented you building on the success of the title winning side?

[Stevo985]

But once again, football wasn't invented in 1992, or 1945 os 1910 or 1900 or whatever criteria you want to put on it.

You say you are surprised by our "lack of success", but then go on to only mention our achievements post war and in the last 100 years. We've been going for a lot longer than that, and the achievements we have in that time still count.

This is exactly why we get annoyed at Glaston.

If An MK Dons supporter told you Spurs were no better than MK Dons because they've won the same amount of trophies since they've existed, what would you say? because effectively that's what you, and Glaston to a greater extent, are doing.

[joey55]

But once again, football wasn't invented in 1992, or 1945 os 1910 or 1900 or whatever criteria you want to put on it.

You say you are surprised by our "lack of success", but then go on to only mention our achievements post war and in the last 100 years. We've been going for a lot longer than that, and the achievements we have in that time still count.

This is exactly why we get annoyed at Glaston.

If An MK Dons supporter told you Spurs were no better than MK Dons because they've won the same amount of trophies since they've existed, what would you say? because effectively that's what you, and Glaston to a greater extent, are doing.

I'm not trying to say we are greater than you though. I was specifically talking about Villa. I don't want to compare as otherwise we will just get into pointless arguments.

I was genuinely suprised by Villa's history. I guess that is because i had assumed Villa were a greater part of the forging of the modern era, along with the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd, Leeds, Everton and Liverpool etc. I wasn't around in the 50's, 60's and 70's so don't know that period, but I just assumed Villa would have been one of the clubs fighting at the top of the table for many of those seasons. It's seen as an insult to point out you weren't, but if you think about it isn't. I naturally assumed because of your status that you were one of those clubs. If I didn't see you as a big club I wouldn't have made that assumption.

I don't want to get involved in the validity of your early league title wins as it's a silly argument and both sides have pood points. In the sameway Glaston shouldn't dismiss your wins, you should ackowledge it isn't quite the same thing as winning the title once the league became a nation wide competition, rather than a nothern league (Villa being the most southern club). So both arguments have validity, but the argument itself doesn't get anyone anywhere, it just annoys people, so is best left alone.

[Oaks]

The thing is there is on;y genuinely 3 "big" successful clubs in England. Liverpool, United and Arsenal. Other teams have had flashes, us early 80's Forest late 70s, Spurs early 60s and even Wolves in the 50s. You could also add Chelsea to that, but you might as well call them Abromavich FC. The problem we have with Glaston was he said our history/trophys before 1908 didn't count to him as Spurs (even though had been formed) werenot in the same league.

I dont know what reaction he thought he was going to get on a Villa message board, but it didn't surprise me.

[joey55]

The thing is there is on;y genuinely 3 "big" successful clubs in England. Liverpool, United and Arsenal. Other teams have had flashes, us early 80's Forest late 70s, Spurs early 60s and even Wolves in the 50s. You could also add Chelsea to that, but you might as well call them Abromavich FC. The problem we have with Glaston was he said our history/trophys before 1908 didn't count to him as Spurs (even though had been formed) werenot in the same league.

I dont know what reaction he thought he was going to get on a Villa message board, but it didn't surprise me.

I only really know football from the 80's onwards and therefore I just made the assumption that Villa had pretty much been at the same level in the decades before the 80's that they have since. Hence i thought there would be title challenges, FA Cups etc scattered throughout your history. I didn't realise that your success's were so grouped together and i was really surpised by it. It seems you went through a 50 year period in the wilderness, and then came from nowhere to win the title. I thought that even though you hadn't won the league in a long time before that, that there would have been periods when you'd been in the top few teams and made title challenges etc. In the time I've been alive there have been a few occassion when aside from your title win, you've finshed in the top 3 etc and I thought it was always like that.

[Vojskovoda]

lol, I see simplyspudit didn't take too well to my "If Spurs weren't from London they'd just be another Bolton". I don't even know why he feels the need to launch an assault on me in particular... I just echo pretty much what every other Villa fans says in this thread that the facts show We are the 4th most successful team in England and have won more cups and trophies than spuds etc... Why does that get all the spurs fans so riled up? It's a fact that obviously doesn't sit too well with them for whatever reason and this is why we get people like glastonspud trying to dress up and decorate spuds' history and at the same time trying to downplay our history and success. Will spuds 2 league titles mean nothing in 15-20 years or so?

But seriously, imagine if we, Villa, were a London team and Spurs were from Birmingham?! spuds cling to the fact they're a London club because they know if they weren't from London the media and everyone else would just think they're just a bit shit and Bolton-esque. The London attitude really stinks, just like the attitudes of people from Paris.

[steve-67]

Ifs buts and maybe's but we need to support the spuds for tomorrows semi-final in order to get into europe, as long as we finish seventh.

[Brumstopdogs]

There was me thinking a certain Arsenal were in the football league at the time - must have been a different club to the London based one! Or maybe we've just won 6 more in total of the main 2 competitions than Tottenham and your argument has been sliced apart again

Interesting that Tottenham, a smaller amateur club, (at the time) who have been regarded as one of the top teams in the country 1 time outside 1950 to 1963 were weaker than Arsenal even then! (the southern Arsenal that is - not the northern one)

[villadude]

Did he ever admit to getting some of our lot banned from his spurz site?

[kurtsimonw]

Ifs buts and maybe's but we need to support the spuds for tomorrows semi-final in order to get into europe, as long as we finish seventh.

Surely it would be better for us if Pompey won?

If Pompey get to the final then 5th, 6th and 7th get into Europe (since Pompey aren't allowed), but if Spurs get to the final it's 5th, 6th and Spurs.