Do you believe in God ?

[Yuen_Biao]

It is impossible to define God with mere words.

When we move into the quietitude of a spiritual realm we can begin to understand true realisation and a higher consciousness. These are the first steps towards higher understanding.

Can you explain exacly what you mean by this, as it isn't clear. How do we move into the spiritual realm, and where is that realm? What is true realisation and higher consciousness? High understanding of what - a supernatural being? Please expand.

I persoanlly think it is impossible to define God through speech and mere words.

As always when faced with the questions of God people automatically attempt to justify or criticise God in relation to religion; personally I find the two independent.

We can move into a spiritual realm through meditation, quietitude of the mind and control of the will. Desire and an abundance of pleasure weakens our innate potential to find true understanding. My meditation is spiritual and not religiously defined.

I hope that helps as putting this into words is difficult and misinterpretations often arise when others lack understanding of meditation and internal alchemy.

[tonyh29]

That's a strange question. Who decides which slot the roulette ball ends up in? No-one, it's random.

it's not random at all ..it's whatever slots i've not got chips on :-(

[JulieB]

I think the widely held belief across all religions is that Satan is a fallen angel.

Interesting that the Bible also portrays God as being taunted by this "fallen" slanderous spirit creature..

(Proverbs 27:11) . . .Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me"

In Job Chapter 1 you see the scenario where Satan tells God that Job is only a good man for what he can get out of

God. He then taunts God that if he withdrew his blessings upon him...that same man Job, would curse him instead.

..

[dundeevilla]

Yeah but with all due respect..I could argue the same... I could say Dundee Villa ..YOU haven't studied the Bible enough, therefore YOU don't understand it's not a book of fiction..Works both ways!

I take it you don't want to talk about evolution anymore - you've ignored all the points I've made. The truth of the Bible is a whole other debate surely.

God can and sometimes chooses to intervene on specific occasions. However what I was saying is that God gave mankind a free hand to rule himself in order for the question of whether he had the right to expect them to live by his guidelines. If you just track back a couple of pages I did answer this I think as I don't want to re-quote myself again.

But does God know everything, is he omnisicient in your opinion?

[Yuen_Biao]

I think the widely held belief across all religions is that Satan is a fallen angel.

Interesting that the Bible also portrays God as being taunted by this "fallen" slanderous spirit creature..

(Proverbs 27:11) . . .Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me"

In Job Chapter 1 you see the scenario where Satan tells God that Job is only a good man for what he can get out of

God. He then taunts God that if he withdrew his blessings upon him...that same man Job, would curse him instead.

..

'Paradise Lost' by Milton is all about this - Paradise Lost

[dundeevilla]

How does our body decide to change? Or are you just going to go ahead and call me an ignoramus and ignore the question?

Random mutations of genes when replicating. Most of the time they just clone themselves perfectly. Every now and again they make a 'mistake' and mutate. Sometimes it results in a 'runaway' growth (cancer) sometimes it results in something that is non-viable (dies). Sometimes it results in a slight enhancement, but always there's a slight change.

Yes I understand that we change, but why? There must be something that "decides" it wants to change.

You don't understand evolution. Seriously, why not read a book on it? The information is even freely available on the internet. Read it - it might change your worldview.

[Jondaken]

Yeah but with all due respect..I could argue the same... I could say Dundee Villa ..YOU haven't studied the Bible enough, therefore YOU don't understand it's not a book of fiction..Works both ways!

I take it you don't want to talk about evolution anymore - you've ignored all the points I've made. The truth of the Bible is a whole other debate surely.

God can and sometimes chooses to intervene on specific occasions. However what I was saying is that God gave mankind a free hand to rule himself in order for the question of whether he had the right to expect them to live by his guidelines. If you just track back a couple of pages I did answer this I think as I don't want to re-quote myself again.

But does God know everything, is he omnisicient in your opinion?

IF there is a God, then its not a matter if he is omnisicient or not. He would not be God if he wasnt.

He does know everything, but that does not mean that he made any decisions for us. Just because he knows our future does not mean he made it that way.

[Jondaken]

How does our body decide to change? Or are you just going to go ahead and call me an ignoramus and ignore the question?

Random mutations of genes when replicating. Most of the time they just clone themselves perfectly. Every now and again they make a 'mistake' and mutate. Sometimes it results in a 'runaway' growth (cancer) sometimes it results in something that is non-viable (dies). Sometimes it results in a slight enhancement, but always there's a slight change.

Yes I understand that we change, but why? There must be something that "decides" it wants to change.

You don't understand evolution. Seriously, why not read a book on it? The information is even freely available on the internet. Read it - it might change your worldview.

Read the Bible recently?

[mjmooney]

YOU haven't studied the Bible enough, therefore YOU don't understand it's not a book of fiction

It's not a book of fiction in the sense that "Lord of the Rings", "The Da Vinci Code" and "Gone With the Wind" are, true. It wasn't written as a "made-up" entertainment.

But it IS clearly a collection of myths and folk tales, rather than a cohesive whole. I can - just about - understand how a Christian (or anyone for that matter) could use it as a source of inspiration, as "food for thought" if you like - it contains much wisdom (and in the KJ version, some damn fine poetry), no doubt about it.

But never in a million years could I see any sense in taking its stories as literal, factual accounts that all actually happened, as described. I'm sorry, but that way madness lies.

[LondonLax]

Yeah but with all due respect..I could argue the same... I could say Dundee Villa ..YOU haven't studied the Bible enough, therefore YOU don't understand it's not a book of fiction..Works both ways!

I take it you don't want to talk about evolution anymore - you've ignored all the points I've made. The truth of the Bible is a whole other debate surely.

God can and sometimes chooses to intervene on specific occasions. However what I was saying is that God gave mankind a free hand to rule himself in order for the question of whether he had the right to expect them to live by his guidelines. If you just track back a couple of pages I did answer this I think as I don't want to re-quote myself again.

But does God know everything, is he omnisicient in your opinion?

IF there is a God, then its not a matter if he is omnisicient or not. He would not be God if he wasnt.

He does know everything, but that does not mean that he made any decisions for us. Just because he knows our future does not mean he made it that way.

You must see the problem with that though?

He knows our future from before we are born.

What chance did we have do decide it?

[JulieB]

I take it you don't want to talk about evolution anymore - you've ignored all the points I've made. The truth of the Bible is a whole other debate surely.

We had a huge debate on Evolution on VT a couple of years ago, is it going to make any difference to your viewpoint whatever I say?...erm NO. Am I going to stop beleiving in Creation whatever you say...erm NO?. It's a bit like debating with someone that they shouldn't support their particular football team because you feel yours is better.

If you ask me a specific question then I'm pleased to answer it, but a huge topic like Evolution is too much to take on surely. I was sticking up for my belief in a Creator and the fact that somehow that is considered unscientific. The Bible also contradictory to many's assumptions is in fact scientific.

But does God know everything, is he omniscient in your opinion?

According to Wikipedia...omniscience...

is the capacity to know everything infinitely, or at least everything that can be known about a character including thoughts, feelings, life and the universe, etc. In monotheism, this ability is typically attributed to God. In the Bible.

Yes I would say I do think God ..our Creator is that. However he chooses to exercise that as he decides. He does not choose to pre-ordain everything, otherwise it could be argued why the heck did he bother to create Adam and Eve or the spirit creatures who rebelled if he knew they would. God chooses to give his creations choice on matters. However as soon as mankind chose to disobey him, God immediately laid foundations for this situation to be rectified. As seen in Genesis 2 V 15.

[dundeevilla]

How does our body decide to change? Or are you just going to go ahead and call me an ignoramus and ignore the question?

Random mutations of genes when replicating. Most of the time they just clone themselves perfectly. Every now and again they make a 'mistake' and mutate. Sometimes it results in a 'runaway' growth (cancer) sometimes it results in something that is non-viable (dies). Sometimes it results in a slight enhancement, but always there's a slight change.

Yes I understand that we change, but why? There must be something that "decides" it wants to change.

You don't understand evolution. Seriously, why not read a book on it? The information is even freely available on the internet. Read it - it might change your worldview.

Read the Bible recently?

Blimey what is it with you religious types? - you find it hard to answer a straight question. We are not talking about the Bible here are we - we were talking about evolution. And yes I have read it but not recently.

I take it from your answer you'll to continue to live your life in ignorance and are happy to carry on blindly taking your worldview from the Bible, a 2000-year-old book written by Bronze Age farmers that's supposedly the world of God but is so full of contradictions that you could write another book on them. Fair enough. All the best with that.

Us here in the real world prefer to live an educated and enlightened existence in which we're not motivated to be good boys and girls cos we're scared we'll be sent to burn in a fiery pit by your "loving" fictional deity.

[Jimzk5]

if god loves me, hes got a funny way of showing it. my life has gone tits up this year. cheers god.

[dundeevilla]

We had a huge debate on Evolution on VT a couple of years ago, is it going to make any difference to your viewpoint whatever I say?...erm NO. Am I going to stop beleiving in Creation whatever you say...erm NO?. It's a bit like debating with someone that they shouldn't support their particular football team because you feel yours is better.

If you ask me a specific question then I'm pleased to answer it, but a huge topic like Evolution is too much to take on surely. I was sticking up for my belief in a Creator and the fact that somehow that is considered unscientific. The Bible also contradictory to many's assumptions is in fact scientific.

I've asked you several questions Julie, but you don't seem interested in answering. Let's just leave it.

[Jondaken]

How does our body decide to change? Or are you just going to go ahead and call me an ignoramus and ignore the question?

Random mutations of genes when replicating. Most of the time they just clone themselves perfectly. Every now and again they make a 'mistake' and mutate. Sometimes it results in a 'runaway' growth (cancer) sometimes it results in something that is non-viable (dies). Sometimes it results in a slight enhancement, but always there's a slight change.

Yes I understand that we change, but why? There must be something that "decides" it wants to change.

You don't understand evolution. Seriously, why not read a book on it? The information is even freely available on the internet. Read it - it might change your worldview.

Read the Bible recently?

Blimey what is it with you religious types? - you find it hard to answer a straight question. We are not talking about the Bible here are we - we were talking about evolution. And yes I have read it but not recently.

I take it from your answer you'll to continue to live your life in ignorance and are happy to carry on blindly taking your worldview from the Bible, a 2000-year-old book written by Bronze Age farmers that's supposedly the world of God but is so full of contradictions that you could write another book on them. Fair enough. All the best with that.

Us here in the real world prefer to live an educated and enlightened existence in which we're not motivated to be good boys and girls cos we're scared we'll be sent to burn in a fiery pit by your "loving" fictional deity.

I live in the same world you do. I know more about the theory of evolution than most people, as Ive already said many times in this thread, I have looked into the theory.

How do you expect me to come up with well thought out answers to your questions when you phrase them like this?

[dundeevilla]

Yeah but with all due respect..I could argue the same... I could say Dundee Villa ..YOU haven't studied the Bible enough, therefore YOU don't understand it's not a book of fiction..Works both ways!

I take it you don't want to talk about evolution anymore - you've ignored all the points I've made. The truth of the Bible is a whole other debate surely.

God can and sometimes chooses to intervene on specific occasions. However what I was saying is that God gave mankind a free hand to rule himself in order for the question of whether he had the right to expect them to live by his guidelines. If you just track back a couple of pages I did answer this I think as I don't want to re-quote myself again.

But does God know everything, is he omnisicient in your opinion?

IF there is a God, then its not a matter if he is omnisicient or not. He would not be God if he wasnt.

He does know everything, but that does not mean that he made any decisions for us. Just because he knows our future does not mean he made it that way.

So you admit God knows our future - which means 'free will' does not exist. Thank you.

Your particular religion's version of god is logically impossible.

PS: If "he did not make it that way" then who did??? Is this your way of admitting your god is not omnipotent after all?? Blimey, he looks more and more unlikely by the minute.

[Jondaken]

Yeah but with all due respect..I could argue the same... I could say Dundee Villa ..YOU haven't studied the Bible enough, therefore YOU don't understand it's not a book of fiction..Works both ways!

I take it you don't want to talk about evolution anymore - you've ignored all the points I've made. The truth of the Bible is a whole other debate surely.

God can and sometimes chooses to intervene on specific occasions. However what I was saying is that God gave mankind a free hand to rule himself in order for the question of whether he had the right to expect them to live by his guidelines. If you just track back a couple of pages I did answer this I think as I don't want to re-quote myself again.

But does God know everything, is he omnisicient in your opinion?

IF there is a God, then its not a matter if he is omnisicient or not. He would not be God if he wasnt.

He does know everything, but that does not mean that he made any decisions for us. Just because he knows our future does not mean he made it that way.

So you admit God knows our future - which means 'free will' does not exist. Thank you.

Your particular religion's version of god is logically impossible.

PS: If "he did not make it that way" then who did??? Is this your way of admitting your god is not omnipotent after all?? Blimey, he looks more and more unlikely by the minute.

He KNOWS our future. He did not MAKE our future. He made free will and then we used that free will and made our own future. He sees the future we made.

If you think this debate is such a joke, why spend so much of your time in it?

[JulieB]

I take it from your answer you'll to continue to live your life in ignorance and are happy to carry on blindly taking your worldview from the Bible, a 2000-year-old book written by Bronze Age farmers that's supposedly the world of God but is so full of contradictions that you could write another book on them. Fair enough. All the best with that

Bronze Age Farmers????!!!...well let's take a look at the writer of the first 5 books of the Bible... Moses

Moses was bought up by Pharoah's family as a son...He became mighty in letters and words...having being educated by no doubt some of the finest teacher's to be found anywhere being as they were the then rulers of the so called civilized world Egypt. One only has to look at their pyramids and artifacts to know that Moses would have harldy grown up a Bronze age farmer! Egyptian Astronomer's mapped the skies!!.. That household would also have had access to one of the finest libraries ever known to man...namely to be found in the city of Alexandria.

[dundeevilla]

I live in the same world you do. I know more about the theory of evolution than most people, as Ive already said many times in this thread, I have looked into the theory.

How do you expect me to come up with well thought out answers to your questions when you phrase them like this?

With all due respect the comments you've made on evolution in this thread have been nonsense so far, giving the impression you know absolutely nothing about it. If you do indeed "know more about it than most people" I apologise, although in my own defence you have not shown that to be true thus far.

I look forward to some well thought-out answers from yourself, instead of your previous "have you read the bible lately" type reponses.

[dundeevilla]

He KNOWS our future. He did not MAKE our future. He made free will and then we used that free will and made our own future. He sees the future we made.

If you think this debate is such a joke, why spend so much of your time in it?

Who said I thought it was a joke?

So your argument is, if I understand correctly - We made our own future, but God still knows what that future is going to be before it happens, therefore we have free will. Think about what you've just said. It makes no logical sense.