economic situation is dire

[VILLAFC2000]

As we seem to have moved ot

It's well documented that many lib dems wanted to go in with labour

It's also well documented that balls an co knew they had **** the country right over and didn't want to be in government but sniping from the sidelines

:-) Tony - I notice how you were always happy when the Tory party were in opposition to say that the job of opposition was to oppose. The H word again?

Many Lib Dems did not want to go with Labour, nor did they want to go with the Tory party. The country did not want a Lib Dem / Tory merged Gvmt that was interpreted by Cameron as a green light to impose radical right wing schemes. As said no party had a big enough majority and we were left with this frankly awful Gvmt that has been nothing more than a mouthpiece for the Tory right and its backers, backed up by the blundering and inept Clegg and Alexander.

What's happening now is Cameron is trying every tactic he can to try and win favour with the electorate, we see that with the lies and spin they try and put on what he has done, while behind the scenes he is pandering to his backers. That is neither good for the country in general nor is it good for the LibDems.

If theres one critism of Cameron from his own party its that he moves to quick and does not always dwell on matters.

I think this move is about pressure from the City that is London, and we live in a democracy.......!

[Awol]

No it was meant as a broader definition of what Drat labels 'little Englanders', by which he means a closet nazi, itching to rebuild the gas chambers.

What a complete and utter load of bollox from AWOL. Where have I said a closet Nazi, or are you making things up again? Quite scandalous statement in reality from you. I am surprised that the mods have allowed you to get away with that

My comment was clearly a parody of your repeated attempts to equate the Conservative party with the BNP - a party that most accept is broadly National Socialist (Nazi) in outlook. I think that is scandalous so you can put away the faux outrage, Drat.

One of the fundamental things that always seem to escape the thinking of the Euroscpetics in all the parties that are anti-Europe is the fact that most of the large revenue earners for the UK are multi nationals who do not pander to the inward looking that is common trait of supporters of these ideas.

My bold: This is the fundamental failure in understanding of the Eurosceptics position by the EUphiles. Being anti the EU is actually an internationalist and outward looking position, there are far larger markets outside the EU that are growing rapidly and with whom we have a limited ability to do trade deals on our own terms, because of EU regulation.

If our recovery relies on growth (as well as long term rebalancing of the economy) then being chained to the moribund EU - itself in for an extended period of recession/very poor growth - is not a particularly good place to be.

Cameron was in a hopeless position, completely, and partly self inflicted.

Cameron took the only course of action open to him that avoided a UK referendum on the transfer of greater power to Brussels from Westminster. In effect he prevented the British people from expressing their desire to leave the EU completely - an outcome all three big parties would find difficult to ignore.

I'd be interested to hear the view of ANY pro-EU poster on why bringing about that situation would have served the national interest (if you believe that is represented by staying in the EU)?

...as Sarkozy said - like attending a wife swapping party, without bringing a wife.

Sarkosy didn't just want the UK to bring the wife, he wanted us to sit in the corner and watch her get rogered - while paying for the privilege. He knew some of the proposals were economically unacceptable to the UK and refused to negoitate on that at all. Sarko wrecked the Treaty and deliberately so, imo.

The French don't want the UK in the EU messing up their plans to use it in France's national interest, and should they proceed with putting together legislation that is clearly hostile to the UK interest it will be time to leave. That doesn't mean ending trade with the EU nations, after all they sell much more to us than we do to them so it is not in their interest raise the drawbridge. It would mean opening up huge opportunities further afield, particularly in the emerging markets of the Commonwealth and the BRIC's.

Another perpsective is that IF the EZ does go tits up, the smaller EU countries currently following Merkosy - in the hope that the Euro can still put them on the fast track to prosperity - may well look at the vindicated UK position and realign their political loyalties.

[Awol]

There seems to be an agreement that the ECB will lend 200 billion Euro to the IMF ....Aside from this being a device to subvert the charter of the ECB (which is verbotten from lending directly to member States) the numbers involved amount to mere tokenism.

Or not....

Bundesbank rejects Europe's IMF funding ruse

Europe's leaders agreed in Brussels to mobilise the reserves of the 17 national banks of the eurozone system to finance the IMF, hoping that this will then lever fresh money from China, Japan, and other global powers.

Andreas Dombret, a Bundesbank board member, said Germany's central bank cannot take part in any form of covert funding for EMU states in trouble through the bank-door of the IMF, saying further money can be used only to support the normal operations of the Fund.

"The money cannot migrate into some sort of special pot that is used exclusively for Europe. That would be a clear breach of the prohibition of monetary financing of states. The German Bundesbank has explicitly ruled this out," he told the Handelsblatt newspaper.

Mr Dombret said the Bundesbank's share of any such IMF package would be €45bn and is "inherently risky". It would require an indemnity of some kind from the German parliament. This in turn would breach the €211bn ceiling already set by the Bundestag on EU bail-outs.

Mario Draghi, the head of the European Central Bank (ECB), raised similar concerns last week, warning that the ECB is not willing to use the IMF as a conduit for covert sovereign rescues in Europe...

So that attempt at illegality lasted a whole two days. Are the UK Tories and the Bundesbank the only institutions left in Europe that give a monkey's about the rule of law? Very inconvenient when the other rescue plank, the ESM, also has to get through the German Constitutional Court which was set up after WW2 to protect German democracy.

Unless of course, Merkel can change the constitution to neuter it:

German Constitutional Court at Risk of Losing Power

Some see Germany's Federal Constitutional Court as as a guardian of democracy in the euro crisis, others see it as an obstacle to rescuing the currency. Now members of Chancellor Merkel's ruling conservatives want to lessen its power by amending the constitution -- to remove its jurisdiction over European issues.....

No surprise to see Merkel's communist roots coming to the fore in a time of crisis; the law should be whatever the leader believes it should be on the day.

Does anyone with even a passing belief in democracy think that what the Franco-German alliance are trying to cook up is good for the people of Europe? Ignoring the will of their people in numerous referenda, breaking the laws of their own treaties and now trying to change the legal system itself to push through their plans.

Are people honestly blind to what is happening here?

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

I had a dream last night where everyone (non UK) in Europe throws their hands up in the air in a bit of a Jon Inman / Dave Cameron type way and said "**** this for a game of soldiers", Angela looked up and said "Did some one say WWIII"....and so on....

My Question (eventually after the madness) is: What would happen if they (only invited guests obliviously) all joined the pound ? (Lets say the Germans / Dutch / France).

What would be the upsides / Downsides. Could the 4 in the example effectively rule Europe financially and pick off the other countries at will, especially as they would still be using the Euro.

I know it's a stupid idea but not as stupid as a Single currency for Europe it seems or not nearly as stupid as having a LIB/CON government.

[TrentVilla]

Does anyone with even a passing belief in democracy think that what the Franco-German alliance are trying to cook up is good for the people of Europe? Ignoring the will of their people in numerous referenda, breaking the laws of their own treaties and now trying to change the legal system itself to push through their plans.

Ignoring the will? I wasn't even sure that they recognise the people of Europe have a will any more it is certainly questionable if they have democracy as nations no longer seem to be picking their leaders.

These last few months democracy and the rule of law have gone completely out of the window, it seems it is anything goes time in Europe at the moment.

And it seems that the fear of financial abyss is sufficient for a whole lot of people to turn the other way sadly.

Are people honestly blind to what is happening here?

Some without question, others are turning a blind eye.

I guess Germany finally got to control Europe afterall.

[Awol]

it seems that the fear of financial abyss is sufficient for a whole lot of people to turn the other way.

Which although wrong and weak would at least be understandable if the EU were actually fixing things. All of the proposals to fundamentally restructure the economics of the EZ through a fiscal union are forl years hence.

They don't have a solution for the huge problem in front of them right now and I suspect the markets will give their verdict on that situation this week..

[TrentVilla]

it seems that the fear of financial abyss is sufficient for a whole lot of people to turn the other way.

Which although wrong and weak would at least be understandable if the EU were actually fixing things. All of the proposals to fundamentally restructure the economics of the EZ through a fiscal union are forl years hence.

They don't have a solution for the huge problem in front of them right now and I suspect the markets will give their verdict on that situation this week..

I agree and I know that point would be picked up and I almost edited my post to cover it.

I agree, I don't think they do have a solution but I think enough people think they do or lack much of an alternative and are therefore allowing them to get on with it.

Plenty of sheep in this world willing to follow without thought.

[Jon]

Plenty of sheep in this world willing to follow without thought.

Have you been watching the X factor again Ash?

[JulieB]

And it seems that the fear of financial abyss is sufficient for a whole lot of people to turn the other way sadly.

You only had to watch the markets a couple of weeks ago to see whose really broking the power here & it ain't Cameron, Merkel or Sarcozy

Mervin King predicts global financial meltdown if/when the Euro collapses & the markets more or less stayed where they are. 5 European banks announce THEY have reached agreement to help sort matters out & the markets shot up.

Across the pond you now have the same set of politicians, investment bankers and deregulators promoted into Obama's administration in the last few years, who were responsible for allowing the Wall St banking bubble to run amock prior to 2008.

Nothings changed - it's just a couple of ornaments have been removed into storage & the rest simply dusted down & shuffled around.

This isn't about politics anymore... this is about multi national mega financial institutions manipulating matters & world leaders for their own ends.

[snowychap]

That doesn't mean ending trade with the EU nations, after all they sell much more to us than we do to them so it is not in their interest raise the drawbridge.

It may not be obviously in their interest but it still doesn't mean that it isn't a possibility.

We may look at the balance of trade with the EU in terms of us versus them collectively but individual other countries in the EU may well do the same (from their perspective).

Given that our imports are driven by our own domestic demand (and that our terms of trade improved in the summer because of that demand not growing much if at all rather than our exports following the forecasts of the OBR), perhaps the larger exporters in the EU may not see the UK as a good bet for future growth.

The difficulty that I have with the position of the eurosceptics is the certainty that everything will be as before in terms of trading for the future. That may turn out to be correct but I think that the assumption that it is the only possibility is a dangerous one.

Edit:

Equally. the certainty of those on the other side (that it will necessarily cause problems) is a problem because it assumes that the other 26 have gone in a separate direction which may not be possible or even wanted by (m)any of them.

Apologies if all this appears to be fence-sitting but I think it reflects the uncertainties that we are and will be facing, the mess that it appears to be and that no one seems to have a cogent plan (at least out in the open) to address problems,

[Awol]

That doesn't mean ending trade with the EU nations, after all they sell much more to us than we do to them so it is not in their interest raise the drawbridge.

It may not be obviously in their interest but it still doesn't mean that it isn't a possibility.

It's only even a remote possibility if we leave the EU altogether. Even then any punitive trade barriers put up would fall foul of the WTO and similar organisations so they'd need to be very sure of their legal ground.

Besides, France and Germany are going to be fully occupied putting down revolts in their new Empire for the forseeable and may not fancy the substantial task of picking a proper fight with the UK.

[snowychap]

It's only even a remote possibility if we leave the EU altogether.

Is that only a choice that the UK can make?

Even then any punitive trade barriers put up would fall foul of the WTO and similar organisations so they'd need to be very sure of their legal ground.

Is the WTO really effective in preventing trade barriers from occurring?

[tonyh29]

Some interesting stuff here :

Open Europe

[JulieB]

FSA report out this morning on both their's & RBS Director failings surrounding the banks collapse in 2008 after the disastrous takeover of ABN Ambro.

Hector Sants (Head of the FSA) received a performance related bonus from the FSA budget of £114,000 in 2007-2008 - the year he signed off the RBS-ABN takeover........................ Clawback anyone?"

Oh dearie not another failure to regulate the banks again!

If you watch Inside Job which is available on iPlayer until Wednesday

At about 5.15 mins along.. the expert interviewed from Iceland explains exactly why regulators across the globe have failed to regulate the banks in almost every case.

It's not rocket science........We've all known for years as IFAs that people exit the FSA like at SEC or elsewhere to go and sit on bank and city boards, paying themselves mega bonuses, hence the double standards of regulation still being applied.

Adair Turner all over the news now saying that the law needs to be tightened possibly, so that the regulator can hold bankers personally accountable for their actions within a bank. Funny that Adair, the FSA seem quite adequately empowered when it comes to personally banning, fining and punishing IFAs, brokers and anyone else they feel has acted improperly within the financial sector excluding the bankers!

THIS is the real problem why the economic situation is still so dire, because banks are still operating under no or lax regulations so that they can carry on derivative trading and misusing investors cash on worthless ponzi schemes until they bring the whole sorry mess crashing down. Cameron,Clegg and the Veto is just a side issue.

[kidlewis]

I don't know how much the FSA has cost us, but it's been one of the most pointless departments in the existence of public sector departments.

If anything the one industry I have been hammered by recently is the car industry. They need to regulate the bloody garages that talk crap and try and screw you over!

[peterms]

... this is about multi national mega financial institutions manipulating matters & world leaders for their own ends.

That's the point. All the talk about "the Germans" or "the Franco-German alliance" running things is misguided. Things are being run for the benefit of an elite who recognise no national boundaries and who have no national allegiance. The proposals now being put forward by the 26, like the Maastricht treaty itself, are designed to benefit international capital, and not the population as a whole of any one or more countries relative to the others.

[blandy]

This isn't about politics anymore... this is about multi national mega financial institutions manipulating matters & world leaders for their own ends.

Well, yes it is, but it's also about the unwillingness or inability, or cowardice or strange weighing of options by Politicians that leads to them utterly failing to control, or try to control those financial institutions. It's a failure of politicians at national, EU and Global levels. The only areas where politicians have wdone the right thing have been places like Canada (a while back).

The Anglo American model just lets the financial institutions have what they want, and kowtows to them, the EZ model is sclerotic because the national concerns are pulling them in different directions, and as trent said there's not sufficient wider understanding within the citizens of all these places to enable people to pressure politicians properly. Where pressure is put on, the forces of the state are used to crush it.

It's shameful

[Awol]

... this is about multi national mega financial institutions manipulating matters & world leaders for their own ends.

That's the point. All the talk about "the Germans" or "the Franco-German alliance" running things is misguided. Things are being run for the benefit of an elite who recognise no national boundaries and who have no national allegiance. The proposals now being put forward by the 26, like the Maastricht treaty itself, are designed to benefit international capital, and not the population as a whole of any one or more countries relative to the others.

True, I think the big push for political union in Europe is driven by the forces of global capital attempting to divide the world into blocks and break down the dangerous (from their perspective) concept of national identity. The EU is supposed to be the poster child for eventual global government under the control of the same people.

Nevertheless it is the French and German governments backed up by other professional slime merchants like Mandelson that are the current agents - or at least the public face - of that change.

Our current democracies are imperfect and in the pocket of special interests, but they are still (to some degree) controllable at the national level through the ballot box. Once the electoral link between those governing and those being governed is erased completely (a process we are seeing under way in Europe right now) then the system of democratic governance we and others aspire to is dead, and may be impossible to reclaim from the unholy trinity of politicians, bankers and industrialists who appear bent on constructing the next evolution of fascism.

That's why further integration must be resisted by whatever means necessary, and if we can't stop what's happening in Europe we must at least disengage with the political aspect until the time is right to do something about it.

[TrentVilla]

This isn't about politics anymore... this is about multi national mega financial institutions manipulating matters & world leaders for their own ends.

Well, yes it is, but it's also about the unwillingness or inability, or cowardice or strange weighing of options by Politicians that leads to them utterly failing to control, or try to control those financial institutions. It's a failure of politicians at national, EU and Global levels. The only areas where politicians have wdone the right thing have been places like Canada (a while back).

The Anglo American model just lets the financial institutions have what they want, and kowtows to them, the EZ model is sclerotic because the national concerns are pulling them in different directions, and as trent said there's not sufficient wider understanding within the citizens of all these places to enable people to pressure politicians properly. Where pressure is put on, the forces of the state are used to crush it.

It's shameful

Nail hit firmly on the head there from Pete for me at least.

[peterms]

why the policies being pursued by both our government and the EU are the exact opposite of what they should be doing.

Shame Mr Osborne can't find 18 minutes in his busy day to get his head round this.